Mathis Wackernagel - Founder, President, Global Footprint Network - World Sustainability Award Winner

Interviewed by Mia Funk & Eveline Mol

Mathis Wackernagel is Co-founder and President of Global Footprint Network. He created the Ecological Footprint with Professor William Rees at the University of British Columbia as part of his Ph.D. in community and regional planning. Mathis also earned a mechanical engineering degree from the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology. Mathis has worked on sustainability with governments, corporations and international NGOs on six continents and has lectured at more than a hundred universities. He previously served as director of the Sustainability Program at Redefining Progress in Oakland, California, and ran the Centro de Estudios para la Sustentabilidad at Anáhuac University in Xalapa, Mexico.

Mathis has authored and contributed to more than 100 peer-reviewed papers, numerous articles, reports and various books on sustainability that focus on embracing resource limits and developing metrics for sustainability, including Our Ecological Footprint: Reducing Human Impact on the Earth; Sharing Nature’s Interest; Der Footprint: Die Welt neu vermessen; Ecological Footprint: Managing Our Biocapacity Budget; and WWF International’s Living Planet Report.
Mathis’ awards include the 2018 World Sustainability Award, the 2015 IAIA Global Environment Award, being a 2014 ISSP Sustainability Hall of Fame Inductee, the 2013 Prix Nature Swisscanto, 2012 Blue Planet Prize, 2012 Binding Prize for Nature Conservation, the 2012 Kenneth E. Boulding Memorial Award of the International Society for Ecological Economics, the 2011 Zayed International Prize for the Environment (jointly awarded with UNEP), an honorary doctorate from the University of Berne in 2007, a 2007 Skoll Award for Social Entrepreneurship, 2006 WWF Award for Conservation Merit and 2005 Herman Daly Award of the U.S. Society for Ecological Economics. He was also selected as number 19 on the en(rich) list identifying the 100 top inspirational individuals whose contributions enrich paths to sustainable futures (www.enrichlist.org). John Elkington identified Mathis among the “Zeronaut 50” Roll of Honor, i.e., leading pioneers who are driving the world’s most significant problems to zero. From 2011 to 2015, Mathis was also the Frank H. T. Rhodes Class of 1956 Visiting Professor at Cornell University. Footprint Tools · Overshoot Day

THE CREATIVE PROCESS’ ONE PLANET PODCAST

You've been on this awareness-raising mission for some time. Tell us about the history and mission of the Global Footprint Network.

MATHIS WACKERNAGEL

Actually, awareness doesn't help. We are on the campaign to produce a desire for that transformation. Information is useless unless it's empowering. And of course, it has to be factual. If it's not factual, then it's going to be found out, and it also has to be relevant because otherwise, it's irrelevant. But if it's just relevant, it actually may just be counterproductive because if people see it as relevant but not empowering, they will use their brain to fight it.

So that's why I think awareness campaigns don't work. We can only work on motivation, helping people to find a greater desire to get there, to say, yeah, that's what I want. A sense of agency that they say I can do something about it. Also, a sense of curiosity because we really don't know how to get there eventually.

So, it takes a bit more than just awareness and that's what we learned a bit painfully, obviously, over the last 30 years or painfully because in the beginning we just thought, Oh, why don't people just measure how many planets we have compared to how many we use? And once they see the number, it would be very obvious to them.

So we were the first to start to - and still are I think - the main accounting approach to compare directly how big human activities are compared to what the planet can renew. So it started, perhaps I would say, in reaction to the Brundtland Report, which brought sustainable development to the global stage and had a very complicated definition of sustainable development, “Meeting the needs of present generations without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs.”

In my way of talking, I try to move away from the word responsibility because people don't come to me and say, 'Thank you so much for giving me responsibility,' rather they avoid me at parties and so, how do we talk about it? So I like more the metaphor of brushing your teeth. Brushing your teeth is not so much an imposition. "You must brush your teeth, otherwise, you're a really bad person, you know? No, you just brush your teeth because you want to have healthy teeth. It's not a capitalist plot either. They say, Oh, you're such a capitalist, protecting the capital in your jaw. No, we want to have healthy teeth. So it is just protecting your teeth is necessary. Make an effort today to protect the health of your tooth tomorrow. And that's kind of a similar approach. So the same principles that apply to a country or a city also apply to an individual. I mean, an individual could be an investor or can have a pension fund. And so the question is my investment going to be more valued in the future or not? Probably it's more likely to be valuable if it is aligned with what the future will look like. Or you're making decisions about where to live. Like if you make yourself dependent on cars, then every time gasoline prices go up, then you get more exposed.

If you can live with fewer resources, then you feel more safe. So we are talking more about resource security rather than reducing your demand, which is the same thing, but it comes with a twist. If we talk about you've got to reduce your demand, it generates resentment in society because if I put an effort into showering less or with cold water or not going somewhere, and I see my neighbor still doing it, I feel resentful about that neighbor. So it generates resentment in society. It's because you think I gave myself up for humanity and you didn't. Then it's unfair, you know? But if you think from a perspective of resource security, and you learn how to live not by depending on that many resources, you feel safe for yourself.

And if your neighbor is not able to do it and still depends on all of the resources, you can feel empathy for the neighbor. Oh my god, my neighbor is really exposed. And so it's so by empathy, it's kind of a more stable mechanism. So I think we have to find ways to build empathy for saying, Wow, it's really about preparing ourselves.

Like with COVID, if you protect yourself, that's good for society as well. And so that's kind of a win-win that we want to develop. Big shifts are needed if you want to be able to operate in the future. So it is very serious. I think in the end, only things we want to do will happen. So I think the best thing to get on that track is to, in our own speech, ban the word should because as soon as we say should, we indicate it's not going to happen, and we lose agency.

ONE PLANET

And you work within the EU. How do you navigate the transnational complexity?

WACKERNAGEL

I think actually it's not that complex. Complexity is a racket for not wanting to act. Whole institutions try to generate complexity so everybody can become and maintain business as usual. It's not so complex because, in the end, there's just one planet Earth we live on. It's hard to get to Mars. That's that. And so how can we thrive within that planetary constraint? So I think the first thing is to say is this whole conundrum we live in is not your burden. We personify Earth. Or the world. The world and I. So it's not that complex in a sense. So we often personify the Earth, the world, and say, me and the earth, me are the planet. I'm trying to help the world! The world doesn't help me, or whatever, but actually, the world is so big. Even if you are a big country like the United States or China, you're still one little piece of a much bigger world, so it's more helpful rather than saying, "This is my burden" to recognize the conundrums you are in as your context. That's just your game board. You're on that game board, and the question is what is helpful? The second point is what is helpful is solutions that are replicable, and physically replicable, are good for you because you're much more likely to succeed. With them, you're not running into competition. And it also helps others more than they want others to also take on these solutions because they're replicable are not in competition with you. So that's kind of the true meaning of win-win solutions. Solutions that are replicable are more stable. They make the system more stable. So that's kind of the two simple rules. Recognize it's your context. The second one is focus on replicable solutions, and the complexity just falls away. And you can live with ease and enjoy.

As a minimal condition to be able to persist, we cannot use forever more than what we get back from nature, what nature can renew. It's a very mechanical view, but we are not even fulfilling this mechanical, bottom-line requirement. Ecologists will tell you that to maintain biodiversity because wild species are in competition for that regeneration, maybe it's not a good idea to use the entire capacity of the planet.

So shooting for one planet just means you would be totally dominant, and leave no space for other species. Ecologists say to maintain 85% of preindustrial biodiversity, it would take about at least half the planet left on its own. That would mean getting to half-planet. And now we use at least 1.75. I say at least because our assessments with about 15,000 data points per country in year are based on UN statistics, and their demand side is probably an underestimate because not all demands are included. And also on the supply side or the regeneration side, the UN is very production oriented, so it's the FAO numbers, for example, look at agricultural production, and the depletion side or the destruction side is not factored in adequately.

So that's why it's an underestimate. And still, it shows we use about 1.75 Earths, and that's more than three times half an Earth. So that's kind of the difference. But we also know overshoot will end one way or another. The question is do we choose to end it? Do we choose it by design, or do we let nature take the lead and end overshoot by disaster? So it's really ending overshoot by design or disaster. That's the big choice we need to make.

For example, in Germany alone, 43% of the population knows about the Earth Overshoot Date. We serve all countries with a staff of 20 people. And people know about it, perhaps not sufficiently that they feel empowered. So that's one way of trying to influence the public debate overall. We are still pretty miserable in kind of transforming the conversation. They're still stuck in this mindset or trap, which essentially stands for an inconvenient truth means the more you know, the worse you're off. Who wants to know more if you're worse off? You know, it's a trap really.

So by looking at the effect of overshoot, which we think is the second largest risk for humanity, it actually becomes easier to address because all things come together, and you start to see the self-interest to act. Because if you're in a world of overshoot, and you're not able to be resource-secured, really it's going to hurt you. So it's not just being nice to the rest of the world. I mean, that too, but primarily, it also becomes really essential. If you're not ready for that world, it's going to be very difficult for you. So by bringing this story out, make it resonant, people then also come to us, companies approach us and say, “Let's work with each other.” And it may not be that important how big they are, because we are impressed by stories to a large extent, so the more we can show examples where people build their own success by thinking about the world from that perspective, that's probably convincing others in some ways. So it's very hard to work effectively with institutions who deeply believe that the information is inconvenient because they come up with excuses and you try to overcome the excuses. And by the time you've overcome these excuses, they have invented seven other excuses. Like the hydra, chop off the head, and seven more heads grow. So I think that's really the big tragedy we find. And I think it actually would be so simple if we had a better narrative. We're so in love with the narrative of pointing fingers that we don't see the obvious.

So it's like we are on a boat, and we see a big storm approach. And we realize our boat is not too seaworthy. And then the first thing we do is we go to an international Boat Owners Conference to find out who needs to fix their boat first. Doesn't make that much sense to me, you know?

And then we complexify the story rather than saying, “Actually I am exposed.” And so when you say, “Oh, the poor Maldives,” we take ourselves out of the game. “It's about these others.” It's actually about each one of us in some ways."

I'm not against conferences per se. For example, it's good to learn from each other and coordinate whatever is possible. It's just more the idea of commitment. All we have to commit more. If you say commitment to somebody who is not totally convinced already, what they hear is cost, effort, more complication, and so lots of commitments are made and not even those who make them follow up. You know it's a strange mind frame.

I think it may sound extremely capitalist, but I think it's more about securing our asset base because if our assets are not fit for the future... Assets are there to provide for us, and assets like our houses, our transport system, our energy system are there to provide for our needs. Losing in value means they're less able to provide for our needs. So in the broadest sense, the transformation is about securing that our asset base can be maintained and doesn't whittle away. So yes, it could be that if you look at the end that there would be changes, but is it a sacrifice? Same sacrifice if an investor says, "Oh, you're sacrificing money. You could spend it now, and you invest it somewhere else." So it's a sacrifice in the short run to kind of get more benefit in the future, in some ways. But I think the suffering and sacrifice mode, if that's what's at the forefront of people's understanding, it reduces the possibility for people joining the invitation.

Some people want to lose weight, and there's very little talk about, "Oh, you'd be so hungry, so miserable. You'd be having headaches, be craving food for months to come." No, we say, "Hey, on this program you'll start to feel better and have vitality and look good and everything. So it's worth the effort. Let's do it, and it's going to be so great." So it's how we position it. It's kind of similar to if we lead with only the negatives without understanding why it's such a great return on investment, then we won't be able to win people over.

The main advice we give is to sleep enough. You need to be rested so you can also have a rested brain and make good decisions because in the end, it's about good decisions. It's not that complicated. Trust yourself. And you're needed. I think what society often tells younger people, You're not needed. You have to go to school forever and then get the first internship. But young people are extremely needed because the transformation that will come upon us is larger than that of the iPhone, you know. Just for the entire economy, the innovation that is required is just infinite. So it's going to be challenging, but it's also going to be quite fascinating to be part of it. So, it's going to be a ride.

This interview was conducted by Mia Funk and Eveline Mol with the participation of collaborating universities and students. Associate Interviews Producer on this episode was Eveline Mol. Digital Media Coordinators are Jacob A. Preisler and Megan Hegenbarth.

Mia Funk is an artist, interviewer and founder of The Creative Process & One Planet Podcast (Conversations about Climate Change & Environmental Solutions).

Interviews - FEATURED

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DANIEL GOLEMAN

Psychologist
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President & CEO of the National Constitution Center
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Academy Award-winning Writer, Director & Producer
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ITA O'BRIEN

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PAOLA SPINOZZI

Coordinator, Phd Programme, Environmental Sustainability & Wellbeing · University of Ferrara
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Microplastics and nanoplastic pollution are currently blanketing the planet. They are in the air we breathe, the food we eat, and the water we drink, infiltrating our bodies and even brains and human embryos. Coca-Cola alone sells 100 billion+ single-use plastic bottles each year, ending up in landfills and the ocean. Earth’s population will reach 9.8 billion people by 2050. Two-thirds of humans will become city dwellers. Our waste will drive a mounting worldwide crisis.

POORVA JOSHIPURA

PETA U.K. · Senior Vice President
Author of Survival at Stake: How Our Treatment of Animals is Key to Human Existence

I wrote Survival at Stake because I've been working in animal rights for nearly the past 25 years. Throughout that time, one common question has been asked: Well, shouldn't we deal with human issues first. But animal rights are human rights. Animal rights is environmentalism. These things are not distinct. And that's the point I was really trying to make in my book. I was inspired to write it because of the COVID-19 crisis. It just brings us back to the point of why it is so important to teach people, young people, and young men the importance of being kind to everyone, animals included. If you teach them that, I think the other lessons start to much more automatically transfer over.

LEWIS DARTNELL

Astrobiologist · Science Communicator
Author of Origins: How the Earth Made Us · Being Human: How Our Biology Shaped World History

The challenges facing our society at the moment effectively are the unintended consequence of a solution we found in the late 1700s when society was running out of energy, we had no more timber, and we realized we could dig underground for ancient fossilized woodland, which is basically what coal is from about 300 million years ago. The consequence of burning all that coal and then oil was a release of carbon dioxide, changing our atmosphere and warming the planet. So, it's a problem born out of our ingenuity and resourcefulness, but I'm confident that we will find the solution out of our ingenuity and resourcefulness.

SASHA LUCCIONI

Founding Member of Climate Change AI
AI Researcher & Climate Lead · Hugging Face

My work is really about figuring out how, right now, AI is using resources like energy and emitting greenhouse gases and how it's using our data without our consent. I feel that if we develop AI systems that are more respectful, ethical, and sustainable, we can help future generations so that AI will be less of a risk to society. The way I got into this field was working on the environmentally beneficial applications of AI, and I do believe that that's an impactful way of using AI techniques because there's so much data about the climate, satellite data, and sensor data, and the way to go about this is to work with domain experts. AI is never going to solve the problem on its own, but it can be a tool. So I think that there's a lot of promise there.

DR. SHIV SOMESHWAR

Fmr. European Chair for Sustainable Development & Climate Transition · Sciences Po
Development Clinician focused on Cities & Nation States

How do you have economic growth that is socially equitable and environmentally sustainable? It's not just that you have ecological sustainability; hence, that is sustainable development. Because lots of examples of economic, ecological, and ecologically sensitive growth need not be socially equitable. That's why this whole emphasis on just transition is not just about climate, but it's also about justice. It's about social equity in economic growth. Unlike in Europe, where there is now the call for degrowth or a circular economy, most parts of the world would look at you blankly if you talked about degrowth because they are hungry for growth. And so sustainable development is about managing these trade-offs.

From Ancient Wisdom to the Language of the Earth

Scientists, Artists, Psychologists & Spiritual Leaders Share their Stories and insights on the importance of connecting with nature, preserving the environment, embracing diversity, and finding harmony in the world.

JAY JORDAN & ISABELLE FRÉMEAUX

Artists, Activists & Anarchists Seize Wetlands from the French Republic
Authors of We are ‘Nature’ Defending Itself: Entangling Art, Activism and Autonomous Zones
the story of a 40-year struggle to preserve 4,000 acres of wetlands from being destroyed to make way for an airport

DOUG LARSON

Award-winning Scientist · Ecologist · Professor Emeritus · University of Guelph
Author of Cliff Ecology · The Urban Cliff Revolution · The Dogma At My Homework

I think one thing I learned from looking at the ancient trees is that there is no great benefit to anything of growing quickly and accumulating vast resources. Growing slowly and patiently and with fewer demands on the environment in which you live is just as healthy and perhaps more healthy than the endless hunger for more and more and more, which we see as a characteristic of our species.

THOMAS CROWTHER

Ecologist · Founder of Restor
Co-chair of the Board for the UN Decade on Ecosystem Restoration

Global restoration really means finding and empowering the millions of local communities, indigenous populations, and farmers who are promoting biodiversity. Restor is a digital platform, sort of like Google Maps, but for restoration. So rather than seeing coffee shops and supermarkets, you will see conservation projects and Indigenous-led restoration initiatives. And that means you can find a currently on Restor - I think we have around 140, 000 - so you can go on there for free right now and find thousands and thousands of these amazing heroes of nature. And you can zoom in and you can see every single tree on the ground. You can see every bush and you can fund them or you can buy their coffee or you can go visit their projects and do ecotourism. There's a myriad of ways that we can all support their efforts by also improving our own lives.

We need to be cutting our emissions so that we can allow nature to thrive and help us along the way. For far too long people have been squabbling about emissions. We should do this or we should do that. Climate change is way too big for us to be squabbling about things. We need to do everything now. When we grow the same crops every year, the soil gets more depleted and all the nutrients are lost. I've heard quotes that if we cannot find agricultural systems that rejuvenate the soil instead of depleting it, we are signing our death warrant. It's like we need to be promoting healthy soils if we're going to have any agriculture in the future.

PETER D. DITLEVSEN

Professor of Physics, Ice, Climate & Earth at the Niels Bohr Institute

What happens if we lose the Greenland ice sheet and pass the tipping points and Earth systems shut down?

If that shuts down, roughly speaking, the climate of Northern Europe would be like the climate of Alaska. So, climate models that actually simulate what happens when it's shut down, would say that England becomes like Northern Norway, which means that food security and things like that will be threatened because you cannot grow many crops in Northern Norway. And other models say precipitation changes, so places that are wet might become dry, and so on. So, these are of course severe consequences for Europe, but in some sense, this is going in the opposite direction of global warming. We're all talking about we're getting into a warmer world, but I'm talking about a cooling here. But the warm water that does not then flow from the tropics into the North Atlantic will stay in the tropics. And there, you're not contra-balancing global warming. There you will have the heating on top of the global warming. And that I see as maybe the largest problem we have is that the tropics become even warmer. And we have to realize if you live in a place where mean temperatures are maybe late thirties Celsius and or rise to the forties livelihood becomes very difficult.

DR. BARRY SCHWARTZ

Psychologist · Author of Why We Work
The Paradox of Choice: Why More Is Less

In 2004, the internet was just getting started in a major league way, and already the choice overload was a problem. I would say that from the modern perspective, 2004 seems like the 18th century, and as near as I can tell, all of these changes, every single one of them has made the problem substantially worse. The idea that you can get information to help guide you through - well, yeah, but what information do you believe? What's trustworthy? What's being motivated by an opportunity to sell you something? So there is a haze, there is this fog that we're operating in. And I think we just sort of give up in resignation and look at recommendations and hope that they're legitimate because how else do you get through the day?

KOHEI SAITO

Author of Slow Down! How Degrowth Communism Can Save the World
Marx in the Anthropocene: Towards the Idea of Degrowth Communism

The Green New Deal presents itself as a kind of radical policy. If you look at the content, it's just simply the continuation of what capitalism wants to do. It's a massive investment in new, allegedly green industries, with the creation of more jobs with higher wages, but these are not the things that socialists or any environmentalists should be actually seeking because we recognize that capitalism is basically the root cause of the climate crisis and the misery of the workers. If so, I think it is high time to imagine something radically very different from business-as-usual capitalism.

The Long Tradition of American Jewish Critiques of Israel & Their Suppression

American Jews were interested and involved in Palestinian rights all the way back to 1948. There's this idea that it came about just now or in the 1970s, but actually as long as there's been a Nakba. As long as there's been Palestinian refugees, there’s been American Jews concerned with that, too. I would say that a lot of times these American Jews were very well informed and spent time in the region, and they came to these conclusions often not in the United States, but over there where they were talking to the Israeli left and meeting Palestinians and seeing a situation that they don't feel is ethical or sustainable.

BEN FRANTA

Founding Head of the Climate Litigation Lab
Senior Research Fellow at University of Oxford’s Sustainable Law Programme

For 40 years, the American Petroleum Institute has hired economists to argue it would be too expensive to try and control fossil fuels and that climate change wasn't that bad. The same go-to consultancy firm has been involved in every major climate policy fight from the very beginning and hired by the fossil fuel industry, but what are the courts going to do? It's not just the historical deception. It's an ongoing deception.

MICHAEL STICKA

President/CEO of the GRAMMY Museum

It's actually right in our mission statement that “we celebrate the music of yesterday and today to inspire the music of tomorrow.” And we do it through our exhibits. We have 35,000 square feet of galleries. We travel exhibits, really, all over the world over the world for the past 15 years. And through our education programs, we really focus on the next generation of music's creators and leaders. We do that through really specific curricula that is designed to educate particularly young people, K-12, about the business of music, especially for those who want to go into the industry.

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