Highlights - HENRY SHUE - Author of “The Pivotal Generation” - Snr. Research Fellow, Ctr. for International Studies, Oxford

Interviewed by Mia Funk & Inshara Ali

Henry Shue is Professor Emeritus of Politics and International Relations at University of Oxford’s Merton College. He's the author of Basic Rights, as well as The Pivotal Generation: Why We Have a Moral Responsibility to Slow Climate Change Right Now, among many other publications. In 1976, he co-founded the Institute for Philosophy and Public Policy at the University of Maryland. He was a supporter of the successful campaign by Virginia's Augusta County Alliance to stop the Atlantic Coast Pipeline, and now works primarily on explanations for the urgency of far more ambitious policies to eliminate fossil fuels in order to avoid irreversible damage for future generations.

These long-lived connections provide a radically different example of the insight from one of the characters created by my fellow Southerner William Faulkner: "The past is never dead. It's not even past."

And similarly long chains reach from the present into the future. Conventionally, we tend to think that the future is yet to be born or is even only just beginning to be conceived. But the climate future was already beginning to take shape when humans started centuries ago to inject more carbon into the atmosphere than the usual climate dynamics could handle in the usual ways, and climate parameters were forced to start changing. The vast and accelerating carbon emissions of the late 20th century and the early 21st century are building minimum floors under the extent of climate change in future centuries, barring radically innovative corrections of kinds that may or may not be possible.

[Timothy Mitchell has written:]"The modes of common life that have arisen largely within the last one hundred years, and whose intensity has accelerated only since 1945, are shaping the planet for the next one thousand years, and perhaps the next 50,000." The future is not inaccessible – we hold its fundamental parameters in our hands, and we are shaping them now. In this respect, the future is not unborn–it's not even future.

– The Pivotal Generation: Why We Have
a Moral Responsibility to Slow Climate Change Right Now

THE CREATIVE PROCESS · ONE PLANET PODCAST

It's really amazing to think that our generations have such long shadows into the future. Just to think about how that has changed within a matter of one or two centuries. Over the past three decades, as a political philosopher, you've kept justice at the center of the struggle to stop climate change and express action, prompting ways to approach the climate challenge and avoid leaving an uninhabitable world behind. For you, why is this generation the pivotal generation?

HENRY SHUE

Well, it's because of the situation we face. We can tell from the science that we have to reach zero carbon emissions by 2050. And common sense tells you that bringing them down for the second 50% is going to be harder than the first 50%. So we have to take care of the first 50% by about 2030, and it's 2023 already. We literally must - if we're going to keep climate change from becoming even more dangerous than it is - is to do a very great deal in the next seven or eight years. And a huge amount between now and 2050. So it's not that this problem is the most important of all possible problems. There are other problems like preventing nuclear war, but this is a problem that either we get a grip on it now, or there's a real possibility that it will escape from our control.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS · ONE PLANET PODCAST

I'm all for carbon taxes. The difficulty with carbon taxes is that at what level? Where and who are we taxing? The consumers who are buying those goods? The producers in other countries? Now, with satellites, we're able to see where the emissions are taking place, but are we actually taxing the full cost of carbon? And the people or corporations buying carbon credits, are they sometimes getting rewarded for behaviors that they should be doing anyway for existential reasons?

SHUE

So, we need to be hardheaded about this and look very hard at what people are actually doing. Carbon credits could be a good thing, but they would need to be carefully regulated, and we would need institutions to police them and be sure people are actually doing what they say they're doing. And meanwhile, we should concentrate on reducing emissions because in theory, the carbon credits would get you to the same place but only if what they promised is actually delivered. And it very often isn't. There's a very recent study saying that something like 90% of promised carbon offsets are not actually being implemented. I don't know if it's that bad, but there's a lot of hanky-panky going on.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS · ONE PLANET PODCAST

Indigenous philosophy is one of not being above nature and Indigenous communities are very good stewards of the planet and living within limits for the generations. They want to have something else to pass on. We're just remembering all the intergenerational knowledge that we have forgotten over the years. Something that you've identified is that public policy is often determined by this economistic thinking. How can we transform that so that it really encompasses all aspects, not just putting a value on nature as though nature is unlimited? It renews itself, but we only have one planet. Last year's Earth Overshoot Day was identified as July 28th. And it's getting earlier and earlier each year. So how do we transform our thinking not to be just about the economy?

SHUE

Young people need to encounter nature to actually get out into it and see it and feel it and smell it, sense it. And one thing philosophers can do and are trying to do is to argue that value is not just value to humans, which would be a kind of instrumental value. You know, you want to save a plant because you can make Tamoxifen out of it. And Tamoxifen will help prevent cancer, which of course is a good thing, but also to say species and other elements of nature have value in themselves and their value doesn't consist solely of what they can do for us. So that's two things. One is to make the point that not all value is value for humans, but things can have value in themselves. The other is to try to find ways that especially young people actually experience nature.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS · ONE PLANET PODCAST

These issues are very deeply ingrained in society. And it seems very clear that many environmental issues are largely being controlled by the 1%. So it seems that the public has very little control over our planet. So how do you think that ideas like fossil fuel elimination and alternative energy will be and are being received by the public?

SHUE

People like Greta Thunberg, that's what gives me the most hope is that there is one segment of society, namely the youngest people, who are fired up and who do see the problem and do want to do something about it. I think it's really accurate to say that the battle to get a grip on climate change is also the battle for democracy. Our politics are now heavily influenced if not literally controlled by vested interests. And these include fossil fuel interests. So the Clear evidence of this is that the richest governments in the world are subsidizing the extraction of fossil fuels.

I mean, the United States and the UK have tax breaks and other subsidies for fossil fuel. So that's a climate problem, but it's also a democratic problem because it means that the politics are not being run for the benefit of the general public. They're being run for the benefit of some relatively small numbers of vested interests. So we need things like youth movements on climate change for the sake of the climate and for the sake of getting our politics back under democratic control.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS · ONE PLANET PODCAST

It's really important to also outline basic emissions that are subsistency emissions and the difference between those and luxury emissions. There are things that we can do without. And there are people who have sacrificed for generations and are just coming into having access to the kind of energy on demand that we in the West have.

SHUE

This distinction between subsistence emissions and luxury emissions was my main contribution to these debates. And it has recently been calculated that the richest 1% of people in the world produce more emissions than the bottom 50%. A whole lot more. And a lot of these emissions are by those of us who are in the richest 1%. And I'm probably one of those people. A lot of our emissions are from things we don't really need to do. We don't need to constantly fly for our vacations. We can walk in natural places near where we live, or at worst, we can drive in an electric car and so on. That of course means changing some of the things that we take for granted and noticing how great the emissions that they cause are and doing something to reduce our emissions.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS · ONE PLANET PODCAST

And with the large scale, rapid adaptation that needs to take place across so many sectors, across not just our individual countries, but the world acting in tandem and finally agreeing upon governance and principles and meeting those obligations. What is the role of the philosopher in these political and social movements?

SHUE

One thing we can do and which I've tried to do is spell out the ways in which this is an ethical or moral problem. People don't need philosophers to tell them that they're facing problems. I first became interested in this problem by talking to delegates from India who said, "You people in the rich countries keep saying we have a problem. And our question is, who are we? You industrialized countries, and it's mainly the greenhouse gas from your industrialization that's created climate change. We haven't done that much industrialization yet." This was 25 years ago. Of course, now India is beginning to industrialize, but their point then was, and it's still largely true, that a lot of the problems are going to hit countries that haven't caused climate change. And so this strikes people just intuitively as unfair.

What a philosopher like me can do is just spell out exactly why it is unfair. I think they're right. It is unfair if one person causes a problem, and then someone else has to deal with it. That makes it as if the one who's dealing with it is the slave of the one who caused the problem. I make a mess. And then you have to clean it up. That's as if you worked for me. And that's really incompatible with equal respect for all human beings. And that's the sort of thing philosophers can spell out. And there is now a lot of good philosophical work being done spelling these things out.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS · ONE PLANET PODCAST

It's a complicated issue. We want to save the rainforests on different continents, but some Indigenous people say they have to have a livelihood. Now we're just treating their forests like it's the world's forest. So they have to live as well. That's been another critique that it's another form of colonization. And we need to make sure that they're fairly compensated for being the lungs of the planet.

SHUE

We need to find a way that will preserve the forest, but enable the people who've lived there to have worthwhile lives and lives that they would choose to have. So we shouldn't treat them like they are objects in our museum of nature. Though it does turn out that Indigenous people are by far the best at preserving biodiversity. If one allows them to live in accord with their own culture, they will take care of the forest and guard it, but we need to work with them cooperatively and not impose our schemes on them.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS · ONE PLANET PODCAST

As you reflect on education, the challenges we face, and the kind of future we're leaving for the next generation, what would you like young people to know, preserve, and remember?

SHUE

When I was at my first university, it was thought of as one of the world's leading places in philosophy. And I learned to use the methods that were dominant there. When I went to the other university, the first seminar that I took was a critique of the methods that I had learned at the first university. And this made a big impression on me because I had left the one where I did the Masters thinking, "Okay, I know how to do this now, I'm getting good at this." But then I learned, actually, there are problems with this way of doing things, too. So what I learned from all this is not that no method works and nothing is worthwhile, but just that however good the methods of analysis one has at any given time They're not going to be perfect. And so one needs to keep some humility and keep an open mind and keep on learning and not assume that you're on top of things.

So, one lesson I would draw for education is we really do need to teach people to think critically and not just try to pump them full of the beliefs that we think are right. And I do worry about the extent to which some topics are put sort of out of bounds at universities. We don't want to allow hate b behavior, but I think we also need to maintain free speech and enable people to think critically. And this is another of these tricky matters, but I think that's another balance we need to try to keep.

This interview was conducted by Mia Funk and Inshara Ali with the participation of collaborating universities and students. Associate Interviews Producer on this episode was Inshara Ali.

Mia Funk is an artist, interviewer and founder of The Creative Process & One Planet Podcast (Conversations about Climate Change & Environmental Solutions).

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Psychologist
Author of Emotional Intelligence · Optimal · Ecological Intelligence

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Emmy Award-winning · Oscar-nominated Composer · Musician
1 0 0 1 · Silfur · Transparent · Lion

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JEFFREY ROSEN

President & CEO of the National Constitution Center
Author of The Pursuit of Happiness: How Classical Writers on Virtue Inspired the Lives of the Founders and Defined America

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Glory · The Last Samurai · Shakespeare in Love · Thirtysomething
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President of EarthDay.ORG

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Interview with KATHLEEN ROGERS
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POORVA JOSHIPURA

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LEWIS DARTNELL

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SASHA LUCCIONI

Founding Member of Climate Change AI
AI Researcher & Climate Lead · Hugging Face

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DR. SHIV SOMESHWAR

Fmr. European Chair for Sustainable Development & Climate Transition · Sciences Po
Development Clinician focused on Cities & Nation States

How do you have economic growth that is socially equitable and environmentally sustainable? It's not just that you have ecological sustainability; hence, that is sustainable development. Because lots of examples of economic, ecological, and ecologically sensitive growth need not be socially equitable. That's why this whole emphasis on just transition is not just about climate, but it's also about justice. It's about social equity in economic growth. Unlike in Europe, where there is now the call for degrowth or a circular economy, most parts of the world would look at you blankly if you talked about degrowth because they are hungry for growth. And so sustainable development is about managing these trade-offs.

From Ancient Wisdom to the Language of the Earth

Scientists, Artists, Psychologists & Spiritual Leaders Share their Stories and insights on the importance of connecting with nature, preserving the environment, embracing diversity, and finding harmony in the world.

JAY JORDAN & ISABELLE FRÉMEAUX

Artists, Activists & Anarchists Seize Wetlands from the French Republic
Authors of We are ‘Nature’ Defending Itself: Entangling Art, Activism and Autonomous Zones
the story of a 40-year struggle to preserve 4,000 acres of wetlands from being destroyed to make way for an airport

DOUG LARSON

Award-winning Scientist · Ecologist · Professor Emeritus · University of Guelph
Author of Cliff Ecology · The Urban Cliff Revolution · The Dogma At My Homework

I think one thing I learned from looking at the ancient trees is that there is no great benefit to anything of growing quickly and accumulating vast resources. Growing slowly and patiently and with fewer demands on the environment in which you live is just as healthy and perhaps more healthy than the endless hunger for more and more and more, which we see as a characteristic of our species.

THOMAS CROWTHER

Ecologist · Founder of Restor
Co-chair of the Board for the UN Decade on Ecosystem Restoration

Global restoration really means finding and empowering the millions of local communities, indigenous populations, and farmers who are promoting biodiversity. Restor is a digital platform, sort of like Google Maps, but for restoration. So rather than seeing coffee shops and supermarkets, you will see conservation projects and Indigenous-led restoration initiatives. And that means you can find a currently on Restor - I think we have around 140, 000 - so you can go on there for free right now and find thousands and thousands of these amazing heroes of nature. And you can zoom in and you can see every single tree on the ground. You can see every bush and you can fund them or you can buy their coffee or you can go visit their projects and do ecotourism. There's a myriad of ways that we can all support their efforts by also improving our own lives.

We need to be cutting our emissions so that we can allow nature to thrive and help us along the way. For far too long people have been squabbling about emissions. We should do this or we should do that. Climate change is way too big for us to be squabbling about things. We need to do everything now. When we grow the same crops every year, the soil gets more depleted and all the nutrients are lost. I've heard quotes that if we cannot find agricultural systems that rejuvenate the soil instead of depleting it, we are signing our death warrant. It's like we need to be promoting healthy soils if we're going to have any agriculture in the future.

PETER D. DITLEVSEN

Professor of Physics, Ice, Climate & Earth at the Niels Bohr Institute

What happens if we lose the Greenland ice sheet and pass the tipping points and Earth systems shut down?

If that shuts down, roughly speaking, the climate of Northern Europe would be like the climate of Alaska. So, climate models that actually simulate what happens when it's shut down, would say that England becomes like Northern Norway, which means that food security and things like that will be threatened because you cannot grow many crops in Northern Norway. And other models say precipitation changes, so places that are wet might become dry, and so on. So, these are of course severe consequences for Europe, but in some sense, this is going in the opposite direction of global warming. We're all talking about we're getting into a warmer world, but I'm talking about a cooling here. But the warm water that does not then flow from the tropics into the North Atlantic will stay in the tropics. And there, you're not contra-balancing global warming. There you will have the heating on top of the global warming. And that I see as maybe the largest problem we have is that the tropics become even warmer. And we have to realize if you live in a place where mean temperatures are maybe late thirties Celsius and or rise to the forties livelihood becomes very difficult.

DR. BARRY SCHWARTZ

Psychologist · Author of Why We Work
The Paradox of Choice: Why More Is Less

In 2004, the internet was just getting started in a major league way, and already the choice overload was a problem. I would say that from the modern perspective, 2004 seems like the 18th century, and as near as I can tell, all of these changes, every single one of them has made the problem substantially worse. The idea that you can get information to help guide you through - well, yeah, but what information do you believe? What's trustworthy? What's being motivated by an opportunity to sell you something? So there is a haze, there is this fog that we're operating in. And I think we just sort of give up in resignation and look at recommendations and hope that they're legitimate because how else do you get through the day?

KOHEI SAITO

Author of Slow Down! How Degrowth Communism Can Save the World
Marx in the Anthropocene: Towards the Idea of Degrowth Communism

The Green New Deal presents itself as a kind of radical policy. If you look at the content, it's just simply the continuation of what capitalism wants to do. It's a massive investment in new, allegedly green industries, with the creation of more jobs with higher wages, but these are not the things that socialists or any environmentalists should be actually seeking because we recognize that capitalism is basically the root cause of the climate crisis and the misery of the workers. If so, I think it is high time to imagine something radically very different from business-as-usual capitalism.

The Long Tradition of American Jewish Critiques of Israel & Their Suppression

American Jews were interested and involved in Palestinian rights all the way back to 1948. There's this idea that it came about just now or in the 1970s, but actually as long as there's been a Nakba. As long as there's been Palestinian refugees, there’s been American Jews concerned with that, too. I would say that a lot of times these American Jews were very well informed and spent time in the region, and they came to these conclusions often not in the United States, but over there where they were talking to the Israeli left and meeting Palestinians and seeing a situation that they don't feel is ethical or sustainable.

BEN FRANTA

Founding Head of the Climate Litigation Lab
Senior Research Fellow at University of Oxford’s Sustainable Law Programme

For 40 years, the American Petroleum Institute has hired economists to argue it would be too expensive to try and control fossil fuels and that climate change wasn't that bad. The same go-to consultancy firm has been involved in every major climate policy fight from the very beginning and hired by the fossil fuel industry, but what are the courts going to do? It's not just the historical deception. It's an ongoing deception.

MICHAEL STICKA

President/CEO of the GRAMMY Museum

It's actually right in our mission statement that “we celebrate the music of yesterday and today to inspire the music of tomorrow.” And we do it through our exhibits. We have 35,000 square feet of galleries. We travel exhibits, really, all over the world over the world for the past 15 years. And through our education programs, we really focus on the next generation of music's creators and leaders. We do that through really specific curricula that is designed to educate particularly young people, K-12, about the business of music, especially for those who want to go into the industry.

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