The Transformative Power of Writing with ANDRE DUBUS III - Highlights

Interviewed by Mia Funk

What can reading teach us about loss, healing, and survival? How can we transform anger into empathy? What can we learn from the creative act about turning personal setbacks into opportunities for self-discovery and growth?

Andre Dubus III’s nine books include the New York Times’ bestsellers House of Sand and Fog, The Garden of Last Days, and his memoir, Townie. His work has been included in The Best American Essays and The Best Spiritual Writing anthologies. His novel, House of Sand and Fog was a finalist for the National Book Award and was made into an Academy Award-nominated film starring Ben Kingsley and Jennifer Connelly. His most recent books are the novel, Such Kindness and a collection of personal essays, Ghost Dogs: On Killers and Kin.
Dubus has been a finalist for the National Book Award, and has been awarded a Guggenheim Fellowship, The National Magazine Award for Fiction, two Pushcart Prizes, and is a recipient of an American Academy of Arts and Letters Award in Literature. His books are published in over twenty-five languages, and he teaches at the University of Massachusetts Lowell.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS

I really appreciate how you wrote about your youth in Ghost Dogs, how anger could boil up in you and how you chose to channel this into something more aligned with justice:

I was the boy whose hatred for bullies had become a hatred for injustice of all kinds–for imperialism and colonialism, for racism and poverty, for a world where cruelty and violence and oppression were rewarded with power and vast sums of money for the brutal for the brutal few at the expense of many.

It's so moving. And I find these humanistic principles are woven throughout your body of work.

ANDRE DUBUS III

Well, thank you for saying that. You know, there's a wonderful line from Flannery O'Connor from one of her essays. She says a writer's beliefs are not what she sees, but the light by which she sees. Isn’t that beautiful?

If you want to check in and get some clarity on what you believe, I tell people, well, just write something really honest and emotionally naked and read it back to yourself, and you'll see a lot of what you believe, think, fear, regret, desire, et cetera.

We always reveal ourselves in our work. The truth is, I identify far more with those on the outside than on the inside. And even though from the outside it looks like I'm on the inside – you know, I'm a successful author, professor, white, privileged, educated, straight male from the United States – you can't get more privileged than that in a patriarchal, misogynistic, racist society. But I don't identify with those people. And I don't know if it's because of my youth or just how I am in the world. When you read that passage from Ghost Dogs back to me about my hatred of all those things. That hatred for those kinds of injustices has never left me. In fact, they've just grown sharper.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS

You're especially insightful about when you write about trauma. You had this difficult childhood into your early adulthood before you escaped New England and went to college in the Midwest and then discovered a more fulfilling path as a writer. Could you describe the relief you felt when you found your voice?

DUBUS

I wrote about this in my memoir Townie. You know, I was a small boy. I was bullied. My sister was raped. My brother was beaten up by a grown man. I couldn't defend him. I became a fighter and a crazy young man. You know, when I was in my late teens and early 20s, I would really rather die a violent death than see a coward in the mirror anymore. That made me a very dangerous man, but also I hated violence. I hated cruelty. I hated injustice. I found myself going after men hitting women and men smaller than they were, but I knew I was going to get killed doing this. Or maybe worse than that, I could kill someone else. This boy who hated violence could become a killer.

So, as a way to control my violence, I started to box. I said, that'll be my sport. And one night, instead of going to the gym to train – I was training for the Golden Gloves competition, which I was very serious about – something that I can only call the divine made me sit down in a chair and brew a cup of tea.

And Mia, I found myself writing from the point of view of a young woman having sex for the first time with her boyfriend in his car in the misty rain of the Maine woods. I don't know where this came from, but I remember I took a sip of this tea I'd brewed and had been boiling minutes earlier, but now it was almost cold.

I thought I'd been writing for a few minutes, but it was clearly over an hour. And when I put that pencil down, and I'm still in all my workout clothes, it's winter. It's nighttime. I've been working construction all day, and I was heading to the gym to train. I read over what I wrote, and I had never felt more like myself. I felt like Andre for the first time. I was in my early 20s. And I'm not saying that at that moment, I knew I wanted to be a writer, but I knew that in order to keep feeling this authentically like me, I would have to keep writing.

House of Sand and Fog

The character I wrote about in House of Sand And Fog was based on a former colonel and aeronautical engineer in the Shah's Air Force. I watched him work at a gas station. And on his days off, he'd put on his suit and look for better work. One night I'm helping him bring his groceries in, and he said in his thick Persian accent, "You know, I used to work with kings and presidents and prime ministers in my office by myself. Now, I'm serving candy and cigarettes to kids who don't even know who I am."

Crafting Characters Through Acting & Writing

I did some acting in my 20s and 30s. It's an art form I really admire, but it's a sister art form where you are emptying yourself of yourself to become someone else, except you're bringing your humanity to whoever's point of view you're writing from, whether it's a man or a woman, someone from a different race or ethnicity or religious background. We all share far more than we do not, and so we have to find that common thread. It's ironic that you find more of yourself stepping into the private skin of another, but isn't that always also the case being a reader? We read from the points of view of other human beings, sometimes from cultures we've never even stepped into, and we find more of ourselves than we did before. It's the miraculous promise of literature.

I love character actors. I love the actor who or she isn't the lead – and who's that? I've seen him or her before. They get lost in that secondary character and become this other human being. For me, one of the joys of writing, you know, I've got a novel called The Garden Last Days, and the draft I sent to my publisher had 14 points of view, and I tried to make every single one a distinct voice, a distinct vision, from a three-year-old girl to a 9-11 hijacker from Saudi Arabia, to a, 26-year-old sex worker, on and on. It was such a joy for me to do that, and it still remains a joy for me. It's got to be radical curiosity like my friend, Elizabeth Strout, whose work I revere, she says, "For me, I have to be desperately curious about my characters."

The Purpose of Education

Self-educate yourself. Information and knowledge are so different. They're not the same thing. And so I teach young people, and I find it immensely gratifying to do so, especially for those who've already found writing in their blood so young. I say, "Do you know how lucky you are to have found something that makes you feel so alive this early in your life? People live whole lives and never find it."

Creative Writing in the Age of AI

I am deeply concerned about the digital world. I do not own an iPhone. I've never sent a text. I've never been on social media. It's because I've seen this horrible depletion of joy in my college students over the last 20 years, 15 years. It's not global warming. It's not mass shootings, which are horrific enough. It's staring at those screens six to 11 hours a day. It's sucking their life force out of them. My deep concern about the handheld is it's casting everybody to be in a trance, and it's taking from them the only thing we have, which is the present moment. Everyone's walking around in a state of continuous partial attention. So, I have real issues with technology, but I love the Internet. I love it's a democratization of information across the globe for those who are fortunate enough to have Internet access.

Embracing a Receptive State in Writing

There's a wonderful essay by the American poet William Stafford, where he says the poet, before writing, must put herself into a place of openness or receptivity. And he said, you're being receptive when you are. And this is really hard, I think, especially for Americans who still eat a steady diet of the following: The point of life is to be happy, and the way to be happy is to be a success. – It's horseshit. This is not the point of life. It's a lie. And the second part is, you must be willing to fail. Not, oh, I'm going to tolerate a little bit of it. I am going to totally fail at this, but I'm still going to do it anyway.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS

You’ve discussed your teaching process and writers who have been important for you, but which teachers were important for you growing up? And what would you like young people to know, preserve, and remember?

DUBUS

I don't want to sound self-pitying when I say this, but the truth is when I grew up, we moved two or three times a year. I was always the new kid. My dad lived elsewhere. My relatives lived 2000 miles away. So I didn't have a lot of adults in my life. And I became this kind of shy, quiet kid who did not ask for help from anybody. I didn't reach out for teachers. I still don't. And so the only teacher who comes to mind when you ask about teachers is that when I started to box, his name was Paul Harriman. He taught me how to throw a right cross. And it was the first time in a long time a grown man looked at me, took me in, and gave me about five minutes of his time. And just that one act turned my life three degrees in a more positive direction.

I didn't have a lot of teachers. I didn't have a lot of mentors. I was blessed to have a beautiful writer as a father, but he was more of a buddy. His writing teaches me, but that wasn't there when we were alive together.

What strikes me so much about education or being an educator, you know, the word to educate from the Latin means to draw out or to lead. So, it shouldn't be about stuffing information or data into, but drawing out. Who are you? I try to draw them out through whatever we're reading, whatever they're writing, whatever we're talking about, to draw them out into themselves. Because life goes by like this. And if you're not living an authentic life, you're not going to have a joyful life. And if you're not going to have a joyful life, you're not going to give back freely to people around you who need more and don't have your privileges. I don't think anyone has a better imagination than anybody else. That's not to say that some writers don't write more compelling work than others, but it's not because their imagination is better. It has to do with the tools they're using or not using, which can be taught. The fuel for that, back to where we began, has got to be authentic curiosity about the lives of others. In order to be authentically curious, you must suffer with them yourself. Compassion literally means to suffer with. Young people are so receptive to that way of looking at the world. I think it shows them that they count, that they have value, and that they, too, can do something large by doing something small and humble. And it's beautiful.

Photo credit: Kevin Harkins

This interview was conducted by Mia Funk and Melannie Munoz with the participation of collaborating universities and students. Associate Interviews Producers on this episode were Sophie Garnier and Melannie Munoz. The Creative Process is produced by Mia Funk. Additional production support by Katie Foster.

Mia Funk is an artist, interviewer and founder of The Creative Process & One Planet Podcast (Conversations about Climate Change & Environmental Solutions).
Listen on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Interviews - FEATURED

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NICHOLAS KRISTOF

Pulitzer Prize-winning Journalist · NYTimes Op-Ed Columnist
Author of Chasing Hope, A Reporter's Life · Coauthor of Half the Sky · Tightrope · A Path Appears

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GUILLAUME LAFORTUNE

Vice President · Head of the Paris Office
UN Sustainable Development Solutions Network

The SDSN was set up to mobilize research and science for the Sustainable Development Goals. The development goals were adopted in 2015 by all UN member states, marking the first time in human history that we have a common goal for the entire world. Out of all the targets that we track, only 16 percent are estimated to be on track. Currently, none of the SDGs are on track to be achieved at the global level.

CHARLIE HERTZOG YOUNG

Award-winning Climate Activist
Author of Spinning Out: Climate Change, Mental Health and Fighting for a Better Future

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SHARMEEN OBAID-CHINOY

Oscar & Emmy-winning Director
Diane von Furstenberg: Woman in Charge · A Girl in the River
Forthcoming Star Wars film starring Daisy Ridley

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INGRID NEWKIRK

Founder & President of PETA - People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals

I think things do change because of agitation. So agitation is vital. I mean, nobody who is in a cause should be there to win a popularity contest, whether you're working for children or the elderly or working for peace animals, it's all against nonviolence, aggression, domination, and needless cruelty and suffering. It's all for respect. So you have to be vigorous. You have to use your voice. You can use it politely, but if people don't listen, at PETA, we escalate. So we always start off with a polite letter, a polite entreaty. We always try to, as I say, do the homework. So we have the options that we put out on the table to say, look, instead of doing this, you could do that, and we will help you transition to that.

DANIEL GOLEMAN

Psychologist
Author of Emotional Intelligence · Optimal · Ecological Intelligence

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DUSTIN O'HALLORAN

Emmy Award-winning · Oscar-nominated Composer · Musician
1 0 0 1 · Silfur · Transparent · Lion

The album 1 0 0 1 is really like a journey from our connection with nature to where we are now, in this moment where we're playing with technology. We're almost in this hybrid space, not fully understanding where it's going. And it's very deep in our subconscious and probably much greater than we realize. And it sort of ends in this space where the consciousness of what we're creating, it's going to be very separate from us. And I believe that's kind of where it's heading – the idea of losing humanity, losing touch with nature and becoming outside of something that we have created.

JEFFREY ROSEN

President & CEO of the National Constitution Center
Author of The Pursuit of Happiness: How Classical Writers on Virtue Inspired the Lives of the Founders and Defined America

That idea of planting seeds for future generations came from the Tusculan Disputations. There’s something especially empowering about Cicero. And it's very striking that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams and so many in the Founding Era viewed this manual about overcoming grief as the definition for achieving happiness. And I think it's because it's a philosophy of self-mastery, self-improvement, and self-empowerment.

BERTRAND PICCARD

Explorer & Aviator of the First Round-the-World Solar-powered Flight
Founder of Solar Impulse Foundation & Climate Impulse

The goal with Climate Impulse is to revolutionize aviation and show that we can decarbonize aviation. Of course, it's not yet a jumbo jet with hydrogen. It's a two-seater airplane. If we go around the world nonstop with two people on board, this project can become like a flagship of climate action.

ED ZWICK

Academy Award-winning Writer, Director & Producer
Glory · The Last Samurai · Shakespeare in Love · Thirtysomething
Author of NYTimes Bestseller Hits, Flops & Other Illusions: My Fortysomething Years in Hollywood

My intention was to write about my experiences, obviously, but also I felt that there was a little bit of a counterintuitive approach, which is to talk about some of the inner experiences of the creative process and being a director, being a writer, and I felt that that would open the window a little bit wider. I liked that it wasn't just a behind-the-scenes look. It is that, and I think it's full of fun anecdotes and little reveals, but it is to be a real book. It presumes to be a memoir, like many of the memoirs that I have loved of creative people in the past.

ALAN POUL

Emmy & Golden Globe-winning Executive Producer · Director
Tokyo Vice · Six Feet Under · Tales of the City · My So-Called Life

I think all great work comes from the need to say something. And so this is the challenge for young artists and also maybe one of the essential elements that can never be completely taken over by AI because there has to be something you feel has not been said, and you feel an urgent need to say it. In fact, you can't not say it. That need to express is what gives birth to unique expression, which is where all of our visual, performance, and creative arts come from.

Featured

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MICHAEL CRONIN

Author of Eco-Travel: Journeying in the Age of the Anthropocene
Snr. Researcher · Trinity Centre for Literary & Cultural Translation

The idea of a kind of inert world that is simply there for our pleasure, enjoyment, and exploitation has proved to be catastrophically mistaken because we see it with flooding, we see it with forest fires. We see it with acidification of the oceans. We see it with the continuing rise in temperatures that the world itself, the more-than-human world is fighting back. It has taken on its own agency. And therefore, the idea of a pyramid, a hierarchy, is no longer operative.

CAMILLA HAWTHORNE

Co-Editor of The Black Geographic: Praxis, Resistance, Futurity
Author of Contesting Race and Citizenship: Youth Politics in the Black Mediterranean

A Black geographic perspective for me was really helpful in trying to clarify how we can simultaneously understand Blackness as a global project, that is anti-national, that transcends borders, but that also takes on really specific meanings and practices in different places, engagements with Black geographies that are looking just beyond the framework of North America.

ITA O'BRIEN

Intimacy Coordinator · Founder of Intimacy on Set
Author of Intimacy On Set Guidelines

For years, people spoke about how awkward or embarrassing it was to perform the intimate content. And what they're speaking about is feeling horrible. If something's awkward, that squirm, that ring in the body, it feels embarrassing. That's actually an emotion that is not professional. That is not allowing the actor to stay feeling listened to, heard, empowered, autonomous. And so that they can just get on without any of those concerns and do their job to their best ability. And that's the awareness that we brought. So, we're saying, it is not suitable in our workplace for anybody to feel harassed or abused.

SY MONTGOMERY & MATT PATTERSON

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ANDRE DUBUS III

NYTimes Bestselling Author
House of Sand and Fog · The Garden of Last Days · Ghost Dogs · Townie

All creative writing is that act of reaching for the pieces to put it back together again. And with the memoir, the essay, it's human memory. Your memory for your own existence. With fiction, it’s a dream world where you're reaching for the shards. Writing is a free fall into the writer's psyche, and if you want some clarity on what you believe, just write something sincere and emotionally naked and read it back to yourself, and you'll see a lot of what you believe, what you think, what you fear, regret, and desire, etc.

LUDOVIC SLIMAK

Paleoanthropologist · Author of The Naked Neanderthal: A New Understanding of the Human Creature

This book is not just about Neanderthals. It's a book about us. I wanted to warn humans, to say there is something in us that is so efficient and dangerous. We've effectively collapsed many things and are now inducing the collapse of natural environments on the planet. And after that, we might even cause the collapse of ourselves as Homo sapiens.

PAOLA SPINOZZI

Coordinator, Phd Programme, Environmental Sustainability & Wellbeing · University of Ferrara
Co-editor of Cultures of Sustainability and Wellbeing: Theories, Histories and Policies

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MACIEJ HEN

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Songs of Nature

Musicians, Writers, Ecologists & Philosophers on the Mysteries of the Natural World

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TARA ISABELLA BURTON

Author of Here in Avalon · Social Creature · Strange Rites: New Religions for a Godless World
Self-Made: Curating Our Image from Da Vinci to the Kardashians
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BRYCE COON

Director of Education · EarthDay.ORG

If you talk to a young person about the climate crisis, they tend to have one of two responses. They either feel like we're not doing enough, and they're advocating for more. The other response is that students would just shut down and wouldn't want to talk about it. I believe introducing climate education is key to addressing that climate anxiety and providing students with climate optimism, hope and solutions.

KATHLEEN ROGERS

President of EarthDay.ORG

The world recognizes that plastics have imperiled our future. Many environmentalists, myself included, view plastics as on par with, if not worse than, climate change because we do see a little light at the end of the tunnel on climate change. Babies vs. Plastics is a collection of studies, and we particularly focused on children and babies because their bodies and brains are more impacted than adults by the 30, 000 chemicals that assault us every day.

The Unseen Invasion of Microplastics in Our Lives

Interview with KATHLEEN ROGERS
President of EarthDay·org

Microplastics and nanoplastic pollution are currently blanketing the planet. They are in the air we breathe, the food we eat, and the water we drink, infiltrating our bodies and even brains and human embryos. Coca-Cola alone sells 100 billion+ single-use plastic bottles each year, ending up in landfills and the ocean. Earth’s population will reach 9.8 billion people by 2050. Two-thirds of humans will become city dwellers. Our waste will drive a mounting worldwide crisis.

POORVA JOSHIPURA

PETA U.K. · Senior Vice President
Author of Survival at Stake: How Our Treatment of Animals is Key to Human Existence

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LEWIS DARTNELL

Astrobiologist · Science Communicator
Author of Origins: How the Earth Made Us · Being Human: How Our Biology Shaped World History

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SASHA LUCCIONI

Founding Member of Climate Change AI
AI Researcher & Climate Lead · Hugging Face

My work is really about figuring out how, right now, AI is using resources like energy and emitting greenhouse gases and how it's using our data without our consent. I feel that if we develop AI systems that are more respectful, ethical, and sustainable, we can help future generations so that AI will be less of a risk to society. The way I got into this field was working on the environmentally beneficial applications of AI, and I do believe that that's an impactful way of using AI techniques because there's so much data about the climate, satellite data, and sensor data, and the way to go about this is to work with domain experts. AI is never going to solve the problem on its own, but it can be a tool. So I think that there's a lot of promise there.

DR. SHIV SOMESHWAR

Fmr. European Chair for Sustainable Development & Climate Transition · Sciences Po
Development Clinician focused on Cities & Nation States

How do you have economic growth that is socially equitable and environmentally sustainable? It's not just that you have ecological sustainability; hence, that is sustainable development. Because lots of examples of economic, ecological, and ecologically sensitive growth need not be socially equitable. That's why this whole emphasis on just transition is not just about climate, but it's also about justice. It's about social equity in economic growth. Unlike in Europe, where there is now the call for degrowth or a circular economy, most parts of the world would look at you blankly if you talked about degrowth because they are hungry for growth. And so sustainable development is about managing these trade-offs.

From Ancient Wisdom to the Language of the Earth

Scientists, Artists, Psychologists & Spiritual Leaders Share their Stories and insights on the importance of connecting with nature, preserving the environment, embracing diversity, and finding harmony in the world.

JAY JORDAN & ISABELLE FRÉMEAUX

Artists, Activists & Anarchists Seize Wetlands from the French Republic
Authors of We are ‘Nature’ Defending Itself: Entangling Art, Activism and Autonomous Zones
the story of a 40-year struggle to preserve 4,000 acres of wetlands from being destroyed to make way for an airport

DOUG LARSON

Award-winning Scientist · Ecologist · Professor Emeritus · University of Guelph
Author of Cliff Ecology · The Urban Cliff Revolution · The Dogma At My Homework

I think one thing I learned from looking at the ancient trees is that there is no great benefit to anything of growing quickly and accumulating vast resources. Growing slowly and patiently and with fewer demands on the environment in which you live is just as healthy and perhaps more healthy than the endless hunger for more and more and more, which we see as a characteristic of our species.

THOMAS CROWTHER

Ecologist · Founder of Restor
Co-chair of the Board for the UN Decade on Ecosystem Restoration

Global restoration really means finding and empowering the millions of local communities, indigenous populations, and farmers who are promoting biodiversity. Restor is a digital platform, sort of like Google Maps, but for restoration. So rather than seeing coffee shops and supermarkets, you will see conservation projects and Indigenous-led restoration initiatives. And that means you can find a currently on Restor - I think we have around 140, 000 - so you can go on there for free right now and find thousands and thousands of these amazing heroes of nature. And you can zoom in and you can see every single tree on the ground. You can see every bush and you can fund them or you can buy their coffee or you can go visit their projects and do ecotourism. There's a myriad of ways that we can all support their efforts by also improving our own lives.

We need to be cutting our emissions so that we can allow nature to thrive and help us along the way. For far too long people have been squabbling about emissions. We should do this or we should do that. Climate change is way too big for us to be squabbling about things. We need to do everything now. When we grow the same crops every year, the soil gets more depleted and all the nutrients are lost. I've heard quotes that if we cannot find agricultural systems that rejuvenate the soil instead of depleting it, we are signing our death warrant. It's like we need to be promoting healthy soils if we're going to have any agriculture in the future.

PETER D. DITLEVSEN

Professor of Physics, Ice, Climate & Earth at the Niels Bohr Institute

What happens if we lose the Greenland ice sheet and pass the tipping points and Earth systems shut down?

If that shuts down, roughly speaking, the climate of Northern Europe would be like the climate of Alaska. So, climate models that actually simulate what happens when it's shut down, would say that England becomes like Northern Norway, which means that food security and things like that will be threatened because you cannot grow many crops in Northern Norway. And other models say precipitation changes, so places that are wet might become dry, and so on. So, these are of course severe consequences for Europe, but in some sense, this is going in the opposite direction of global warming. We're all talking about we're getting into a warmer world, but I'm talking about a cooling here. But the warm water that does not then flow from the tropics into the North Atlantic will stay in the tropics. And there, you're not contra-balancing global warming. There you will have the heating on top of the global warming. And that I see as maybe the largest problem we have is that the tropics become even warmer. And we have to realize if you live in a place where mean temperatures are maybe late thirties Celsius and or rise to the forties livelihood becomes very difficult.

DR. BARRY SCHWARTZ

Psychologist · Author of Why We Work
The Paradox of Choice: Why More Is Less

In 2004, the internet was just getting started in a major league way, and already the choice overload was a problem. I would say that from the modern perspective, 2004 seems like the 18th century, and as near as I can tell, all of these changes, every single one of them has made the problem substantially worse. The idea that you can get information to help guide you through - well, yeah, but what information do you believe? What's trustworthy? What's being motivated by an opportunity to sell you something? So there is a haze, there is this fog that we're operating in. And I think we just sort of give up in resignation and look at recommendations and hope that they're legitimate because how else do you get through the day?

KOHEI SAITO

Author of Slow Down! How Degrowth Communism Can Save the World
Marx in the Anthropocene: Towards the Idea of Degrowth Communism

The Green New Deal presents itself as a kind of radical policy. If you look at the content, it's just simply the continuation of what capitalism wants to do. It's a massive investment in new, allegedly green industries, with the creation of more jobs with higher wages, but these are not the things that socialists or any environmentalists should be actually seeking because we recognize that capitalism is basically the root cause of the climate crisis and the misery of the workers. If so, I think it is high time to imagine something radically very different from business-as-usual capitalism.

The Long Tradition of American Jewish Critiques of Israel & Their Suppression

American Jews were interested and involved in Palestinian rights all the way back to 1948. There's this idea that it came about just now or in the 1970s, but actually as long as there's been a Nakba. As long as there's been Palestinian refugees, there’s been American Jews concerned with that, too. I would say that a lot of times these American Jews were very well informed and spent time in the region, and they came to these conclusions often not in the United States, but over there where they were talking to the Israeli left and meeting Palestinians and seeing a situation that they don't feel is ethical or sustainable.

BEN FRANTA

Founding Head of the Climate Litigation Lab
Senior Research Fellow at University of Oxford’s Sustainable Law Programme

For 40 years, the American Petroleum Institute has hired economists to argue it would be too expensive to try and control fossil fuels and that climate change wasn't that bad. The same go-to consultancy firm has been involved in every major climate policy fight from the very beginning and hired by the fossil fuel industry, but what are the courts going to do? It's not just the historical deception. It's an ongoing deception.

MICHAEL STICKA

President/CEO of the GRAMMY Museum

It's actually right in our mission statement that “we celebrate the music of yesterday and today to inspire the music of tomorrow.” And we do it through our exhibits. We have 35,000 square feet of galleries. We travel exhibits, really, all over the world over the world for the past 15 years. And through our education programs, we really focus on the next generation of music's creators and leaders. We do that through really specific curricula that is designed to educate particularly young people, K-12, about the business of music, especially for those who want to go into the industry.

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