CARTER BURWELL

CARTER BURWELL

Interviewed by Mia Funk

Carter Burwell is an Academy Award nominated composer of film soundtracks. He has had a long working relationship with filmmakers the Coen brothers, scoring every film they have made, as well as all of Spike Jonze's films. His credits include Miller’s Crossing, Barton Fink, True Grit, Carol, Three Billboards Outside Ebbing Missouri, The Hudsucker Proxy, Rob Roy, Fargo, The Spanish Prisoner, Gods and Monsters, Being John Malkovich, Before Night Falls, Adaptation, Before The Devil Knows You're Dead, Burn After Reading, Where The Wild Things Are, Twilight, The Kids Are All Right, Seven Psychopaths, Anomalisa, and a number of scores for dance and theater. In his varied career, he has been a computer scientist and award-winning film animator. Burwell lives in Amagansett with his wife, the artist Christine Sciulli.

CARTER BURWELL

When I look at a film, I normally think what is missing from that, and that's what I'm trying to bring. I'm trying to find something that I think isn't there and that I could bring that would make it more interesting, make it more cinematic, more dramatic.

I haven't studied music, really, other than when I was around ten or eleven. I had piano lessons the way parents make children take piano lessons, and as soon as I could stop, I put my foot down and stopped. I did. I didn't find it engaging, and to this day, I don't really enjoy playing written music. I don't even enjoy playing my music. I like just making things up, but music education for children, at least in this country, doesn't typically involve that. They don't have classes in improvisation or music theory for young kids. I don't really understand why. People have tried it. Carl Orff had a system that was very much like that in Germany in the 20s, 30s, and 40s, but it's not what was done here and is certainly not what I experienced. So my musical education just completely killed any interest in music I would have had. And it was only later when I was a teenager a friend showed me a little bit about improvisation on the piano and that got me back into playing and that's why I'm doing this now. It was very therapeutic as a teenager, as an adolescent just to sit at the piano and just express things that I couldn't express in some other way.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS

I'm interested in your process when you're composing for film? What are the ideas that go into it? Do you begin by producing sounds?

BURWELL

Well, usually what I do is I look at the film, and then I go away from the film. I will watch the film. But when I'm writing, I usually begin away from the film. I don't want to be watching it. I don't want to be too locked into a particular scene or honestly to the film itself. I really just want to be thinking about the film and thinking about the sort of emotional, dramatic issues that the film presents. And I sit usually at the piano and there are a number of themes in Carol that came in different ways. There's one theme that is almost like a hymn–we were talking abut hymns in True Grit–and it's just supposed to present the spiritual level of what's going on. Because the way the film was shot, a lot of times the film was even shot through panes of colored or dirty glass.

There were a number of scenes like that. So that's what provoked me to write something that's almost hymnlike. There's another scene in which Thérèse first goes for a ride with Carol to her house, and it's shot with these very tight close-ups so that Thérèse is almost in this heightened state where she just sees Carol's gloves or she just sees the radio.

It's like your vision has been contracted, and I wanted to go with that in the music. Make it sound like you were in an altered state of mind, so the piano just piles up in these clouds of notes so that it's just very odd like you're in a different world. But this is all...I make it sound like I'm solving problems, which is true.

But there's free association involved. It's not that you can get from that scene to the idea of piano and clouds of notes in a direct, logical way, it just seemed, as I sit at the piano and I play, I think maybe I'll go a little farther that way? When I'm writing, I'm trying to make sure that there is always this possibility for free association and for random events and mistakes. Often when I'm playing I try to think about something other than what I'm playing. I may stare at the ocean or even read the newspaper. I put the newspaper up on the piano and I'm doing that while I'm playing. And then, when I hear my fingers do something that, Oh, that's interesting, I will pursue it, kind of track, try to chase the idea. That isn't necessarily even my idea. It just came from chance.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS

Chance...?

BURWELL

Or the subconscious. There are any number of ways to look at it.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS

You wrote something about your work on Carol, which is, again, one of these very subtle films. "There is no widely accepted explanation for the importance of music to humans, but one possibility is its ability to express and relieve emotional tensions that can't be put into words." So as you explored that in Carol.

BURWELL

So the situation in Carol is of a female-female relationship in the '50s when there wasn't any social acceptance of it. And in fact, the characters never even use the word lesbian. It's so far outside their realm of experience. They haven't read books about that. And even though the character Carol has had lesbian relationships, just the word doesn't come up and they just don't talk about it in those terms. And the younger woman, Thérèse, it's her point of view that we experience in the film. She's having these feelings, but she has no cultural context for how to express them, identify them or act on them. So for that film, yes, definitely an important part of the music was speaking for characters. Thérèse is often just mystified. You see her sometimes, she's fascinated with Carol, but also mystified as to what it means and that is fascinated in this way. And the music is saying all these things that she can't put together. She can't express.

So, at the same time, I wouldn't say that it's a romantic score. If you listen to that music, I don't think your first word would be it's romantic if you didn't have a film in front of you. But when you put the film together with the music, I think it's powerfully romantic. It has to do with what's not in the film and the music providing that and then the tension between the two is where the romance comes in.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS

Let's talk about some of those films and how the conversations you might have had with directors at the beginning of the process, looking at scripts, and how you brought that complexity. The different stages.

BURWELL

It's interesting the extent to which the process is always similar because film follows a certain series of steps where something is written, they get a cast, and then the film is approved. And then they shoot it and once it's shot, that's usually when the composer begins to work. And then it's edited. The music is added and that's film. So the process is the same, in a way, with all films. But at the same time, every film is really quite different. And I don't find there's any one approach that works. So, for instance, take the Coen Brothers, because we've done 13 or 14 films. even though we've done that, and we obviously know each other's working methods very well, still to a surprising extent, every one is different. Every film presents its own issues. And I'll read the script before they shoot the film, and we'll talk about ideas, different approaches, but I don't typically write music until they have shot because until I see the way the actors have interpreted the script, the way the cinematographers interpreted it, there are so many different ways to shoot a script. The script is not a film and I don't find it that helpful to me. So, I'll watch the film. And then, as I say, my general attitude is that the music should bring something to the film that isn't already there.

For instance, I think in a lot of action films, the music is really there to amplify what you're seeing onscreen. You intensify it. That's not typically the way I look at it. So I think when you began and said that I'm adding complexity to the film experience, that's the way I look at it, too. I want it to be a rich, complex, emotional experience so that you're not just experiencing one thing at a time. So there are dissonances in your mind, in your heart. And so I'm trying to think of what's not there. And that could have to do with story. For instance, the Coens and I did a movie called True Grit where I felt that it's about a 14-year-old girl who goes out into this lawless territory to try to capture the guy who shot her father. It's obviously impossible for a 14-year-old girl to do that, but I felt that in the book, the way that it's sort of explained is that she has just taken on so much church learning.

The idea of having vengeance and righteousness are so at the center of her being that that's what lets her do it. So my idea that I pitched to the Coen Brothers was that it would be nice if the score was based on hymns. Church music, things, for instance, that she would have heard in the 19th century. And they bought that idea. I actually pitched it before they went to go shoot. And so while they were off shooting I was going through 19th-century Protestant hymnals and looking for pieces that I thought would be useful. And that doesn't answer the whole question. So I figure, well, how are we going to play that? Are we going to play it like really in church? Like you have a pump organ? In the end, we didn't do that. We moved it away from church so it's played with piano and a symphony orchestra. So it doesn't sound like church music, but the tunes themselves did come from that tradition. So that's a film that presented a certain question to me and that was the solution. But another film, No Country for Old Men, in that film the problem was that the tension and suspense of that film, which is the heart of the film, it was aided by silence. The quieter it got, the more you could just hear footsteps on the carpet or something. The more it made your skin crawl. So when you heard music, it always deflated that. whenever there was music in the film, it actually fought the film. And so there the question was so how are we gonna get music into this film? Whenever we added it, it makes a film worse? And the trick there was to fade the music in underneath things like wind or the sound of cars and trucks. You never noticed the music had arrived, but it was still there to do dramatic things, to manipulate the audience's emotions, but you didn't know there was music because when you noticed music, it sort of somehow defeated the reality that the film was trying to create.

So I could go on and on. Every film presents its own problems, and I do to a fair extent consider what I do to be problem-solving. I look at the film, the issues it presents, the problems and the opportunities, and then try to find the best way to solve them.

Excerpt of a 5,000 word interview which will be published across our network of participating journals in the coming weeks. This interview was conducted by Mia Funk with the participation of collaborating universities and students. Associate Interviews Producer on this podcast was Allison Thevney. Assignment Editor was Sorella Lark. Digital Media Coordinator is Camille Montilino. “Winter Time” was composed by Nikolas Anadolis and performed by the Athenian Trio.

 

Mia Funk is an artist, interviewer and founder of The Creative Process.

 
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Interviews - FEATURED
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My work is really about figuring out how, right now, AI is using resources like energy and emitting greenhouse gases and how it's using our data without our consent. I feel that if we develop AI systems that are more respectful, ethical, and sustainable, we can help future generations so that AI will be less of a risk to society.  The way I got into this field was working on the environmentally beneficial applications of AI, and I do believe that that's an impactful way of using AI techniques because there's so much data about the climate, satellite data, and sensor data, and the way to go about this is to work with domain experts. AI is never going to solve the problem on its own, but it can be a tool. So I think that there's a lot of promise there.

DR. SHIV SOMESHWAR
DR. SHIV SOMESHWAR

Fmr. European Chair for Sustainable Development & Climate Transition · Sciences Po
Development Clinician focused on Cities & Nation States

How do you have economic growth that is socially equitable and environmentally sustainable? It's not just that you have ecological sustainability; hence, that is sustainable development. Because lots of examples of economic, ecological, and ecologically sensitive growth need not be socially equitable. That's why this whole emphasis on just transition is not just about climate, but it's also about justice. It's about social equity in economic growth. Unlike in Europe, where there is now the call for degrowth or a circular economy, most parts of the world would look at you blankly if you talked about degrowth because they are hungry for growth. And so sustainable development is about managing these trade-offs.

From Ancient Wisdom to the Language of the Earth
From Ancient Wisdom to the Language of the Earth

Scientists, Artists, Psychologists & Spiritual Leaders Share their Stories and insights on the importance of connecting with nature, preserving the environment, embracing diversity, and finding harmony in the world.

JAY JORDAN & ISABELLE FRÉMEAUX
JAY JORDAN & ISABELLE FRÉMEAUX

Artists, Activists & Anarchists Seize Wetlands from the French Republic
Authors of We are ‘Nature’ Defending Itself: Entangling Art, Activism and Autonomous Zones
the story of a 40-year struggle to preserve 4,000 acres of wetlands from being destroyed to make way for an airport

DOUG LARSON
DOUG LARSON

Award-winning Scientist · Ecologist · Professor Emeritus · University of Guelph
Author of Cliff Ecology · The Urban Cliff Revolution · The Dogma At My Homework

I think one thing I learned from looking at the ancient trees is that there is no great benefit to anything of growing quickly and accumulating vast resources. Growing slowly and patiently and with fewer demands on the environment in which you live is just as healthy and perhaps more healthy than the endless hunger for more and more and more, which we see as a characteristic of our species.

THOMAS CROWTHER
THOMAS CROWTHER

Ecologist · Founder of Restor
Co-chair of the Board for the UN Decade on Ecosystem Restoration

Global restoration really means finding and empowering the millions of local communities, indigenous populations, and farmers who are promoting biodiversity. Restor is a digital platform, sort of like Google Maps, but for restoration. So rather than seeing coffee shops and supermarkets, you will see conservation projects and Indigenous-led restoration initiatives. And that means you can find a currently on Restor - I think we have around 140, 000 - so you can go on there for free right now and find thousands and thousands of these amazing heroes of nature. And you can zoom in and you can see every single tree on the ground. You can see every bush and you can fund them or you can buy their coffee or you can go visit their projects and do ecotourism. There's a myriad of ways that we can all support their efforts by also improving our own lives. 

We need to be cutting our emissions so that we can allow nature to thrive and help us along the way. For far too long people have been squabbling about emissions. We should do this or we should do that. Climate change is way too big for us to be squabbling about things. We need to do everything now. When we grow the same crops every year, the soil gets more depleted and all the nutrients are lost. I've heard quotes that if we cannot find agricultural systems that rejuvenate the soil instead of depleting it, we are signing our death warrant. It's like we need to be promoting healthy soils if we're going to have any agriculture in the future.

PETER D. DITLEVSEN
PETER D. DITLEVSEN

Professor of Physics, Ice, Climate & Earth at the Niels Bohr Institute

What happens if we lose the Greenland ice sheet and pass the tipping points and Earth systems shut down?

If that shuts down, roughly speaking, the climate of Northern Europe would be like the climate of Alaska. So, climate models that actually simulate what happens when it's shut down, would say that England becomes like Northern Norway, which means that food security and things like that will be threatened because you cannot grow many crops in Northern Norway. And other models say precipitation changes, so places that are wet might become dry, and so on. So, these are of course severe consequences for Europe, but in some sense, this is going in the opposite direction of global warming. We're all talking about we're getting into a warmer world, but I'm talking about a cooling here. But the warm water that does not then flow from the tropics into the North Atlantic will stay in the tropics. And there, you're not contra-balancing global warming. There you will have the heating on top of the global warming. And that I see as maybe the largest problem we have is that the tropics become even warmer. And we have to realize if you live in a place where mean temperatures are maybe late thirties Celsius and or rise to the forties livelihood becomes very difficult.

DR. BARRY SCHWARTZ
DR. BARRY SCHWARTZ

Psychologist · Author of Why We Work
The Paradox of Choice: Why More Is Less

In 2004, the internet was just getting started in a major league way, and already the choice overload was a problem. I would say that from the modern perspective, 2004 seems like the 18th century, and as near as I can tell, all of these changes, every single one of them has made the problem substantially worse. The idea that you can get information to help guide you through - well, yeah, but what information do you believe? What's trustworthy? What's being motivated by an opportunity to sell you something? So there is a haze, there is this fog that we're operating in. And I think we just sort of give up in resignation and look at recommendations and hope that they're legitimate because how else do you get through the day?

KOHEI SAITO
KOHEI SAITO

Author of Slow Down! How Degrowth Communism Can Save the World
Marx in the Anthropocene: Towards the Idea of Degrowth Communism

The Green New Deal presents itself as a kind of radical policy. If you look at the content, it's just simply the continuation of what capitalism wants to do. It's a massive investment in new, allegedly green industries, with the creation of more jobs with higher wages, but these are not the things that socialists or any environmentalists should be actually seeking because we recognize that capitalism is basically the root cause of the climate crisis and the misery of the workers. If so, I think it is high time to imagine something radically very different from business-as-usual capitalism.

The Long Tradition of American Jewish Critiques of Israel & Their Suppression
The Long Tradition of American Jewish Critiques of Israel & Their Suppression

American Jews were interested and involved in Palestinian rights all the way back to 1948. There's this idea that it came about just now or in the 1970s, but actually as long as there's been a Nakba. As long as there's been Palestinian refugees, there’s been American Jews concerned with that, too. I would say that a lot of times these American Jews were very well informed and spent time in the region, and they came to these conclusions often not in the United States, but over there where they were talking to the Israeli left and meeting Palestinians and seeing a situation that they don't feel is ethical or sustainable.

BEN FRANTA
BEN FRANTA

Founding Head of the Climate Litigation Lab
Senior Research Fellow at University of Oxford’s Sustainable Law Programme

For 40 years, the American Petroleum Institute has hired economists to argue it would be too expensive to try and control fossil fuels and that climate change wasn't that bad. The same go-to consultancy firm has been involved in every major climate policy fight from the very beginning and hired by the fossil fuel industry, but what are the courts going to do? It's not just the historical deception. It's an ongoing deception.

MICHAEL STICKA
MICHAEL STICKA

President/CEO of the GRAMMY Museum

It's actually right in our mission statement that “we celebrate the music of yesterday and today to inspire the music of tomorrow.” And we do it through our exhibits. We have 35,000 square feet of galleries. We travel exhibits, really, all over the world over the world for the past 15 years. And through our education programs, we really focus on the next generation of music's creators and leaders. We do that through really specific curricula that is designed to educate particularly young people, K-12, about the business of music, especially for those who want to go into the industry.

 
 

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