Debra J. Fisher is a writer, producer, and director. She currently serves as the showrunner, writer, and executive producer of the Netflix series Ginny & Georgia. Season one of the hit series was watched by over 52 million subscribers in its first month on the platform, gathering a devoted fan base. The highly anticipated second season premiered on January 5th. Ginny & Georgia is Debra’s first time in the showrunner’s seat. Through her long and varied career, she has worked her way up the ladder on numerous beloved TV shows including Alias, The O.C., Charmed, and Criminal Minds, among others. With a wealth of experience from her own professional journey, she works to pay it forward by mentoring the next generation of creatives.
THE CREATIVE PROCESS
Are there any particular themes in your shows that you like exploring?
DEBRA J. FISHER
I need a balance of light and dark. It can't be just one thing. I want you to be laughing one minute and by the end I want you to be crying. For me, character study is what is the most important. It all comes down to the characters. It's less about action or things like that, which you can have some of that, but it tonally, has to be female-centric and you have to be crying and laughing. There's so many interesting shows that walk that line of light and dark. I want to always live in the gray area with characters. Always. Nothing is ever black or white. It's always a weird gray area.
"I like to say that Ginny & Georgia is a show about women by women for everyone. And I will say women in charge, they do things differently. I think that women, we tend to do relationships differently than men do. It's very, very important to me - and I'm not saying that men don't do this - but as a woman, as a female showrunner, it's very important for me to uplift young up-and-coming writers."
THE CREATIVE PROCESS
The character of Georgia, she brings tough love to new heights and she's just such a surprising character. For those of us who haven't seen season one, set up the story for us, where we left off at the end of season one and how we open it up into season two.
FISHER
Ginny & Georgia is a show about a mother-daughter relationship where at the core, the mother really doesn't understand her daughter. And I think everything starts from there. We end season one where Ginny has learned that her mother is a murderer, and she and her brother drive off on her boyfriend Marcus's motorcycle. So in season two, we pick up two weeks from where we left off, and Ginny and Georgia have not spoken. And Ginny and Austin have been staying at Ginny's father's house, Zion, who lives in Boston.
Their relationship - they are so much alike. But then again, so, so different. One of the beautiful things about this season with Georgia, Georgia is such a beautifully nuanced and complicated character. She's so layered and we peel back those layers of Georgia and we really get to see what she was up against in growing up as a single mom. So we really do highlight the challenges that Georgia went through in season one. We get to see more of that in season two.
Georgia is someone who will do anything to protect her children. That is something that we have definitely set up. And even murder. She will do anything to protect her kids.
THE CREATIVE PROCESS
And we really come to admire, I think, the intricacies, the manipulations of people too, particularly with Georgia. The way she does it, it kind of seems effortless. You don't see all the things she does. She's like the swan that seems graceful on the surface but who’s furious paddling underneath.
FISHER
Georgia is all this southern charm and warmth on the outside, but what she does very well until the end of season one, when she's been hiding that she's murdered, she's been hiding this darker self of hers from everyone, especially Ginny. So the moment where Georgia in season two, when she walks in, we have that flashback where Georgia walks in and she sees the [poisonous plant] wolf's-bane in the fireplace, and she knows that her darkest secret has been brought to the surface and that Ginny knows the truth and that she's a murderer. And that is one of the most powerful moments played by Brianne Howey. It's so powerful because it just documents, it just shows us visually that Georgia will do anything, even murder, to protect her kids.
THE CREATIVE PROCESS
What I related to seeing…I think that we've all felt, if we are writers, you're growing up and you feel kind of wise beyond your years. And sometimes you feel like am I the only adult in the room surrounded by adults that seem like children?
FISHER
Oh, you mean growing up? I think for everyone, teenagers are very complicated. And I think Ginny and Georgia go through so much.
I think what we really wanted to do with this show with mental health, with self-harm, anxiety, depression, eating disorders, we wanted to show really grounded representations of a deaf family, like “we are just are there.” It's just they do American Sign Language. They just sign to each other. We're just there. So that was always our goal is to try to be as grounded and as authentic as possible. And I think where teens and even adults are, it's through the lens. We're talking a lot more about mental health out, on social media, out in the world, how important it is. We've all just lived through a global pandemic, and I think it's really important to show grounded representations of people on screen. Diversity. These are all things that people really...it makes them feel a part of, and it's something that's so important. I think we showed that in season one with Abby with her parents going through a divorce. Everything seems great on the outside, but then when you open the door and get on the inside - struggling. Everyone's fighting a battle that you really can't see. It's like the theme always - you open the door, you pull back the curtain, and there's always something behind there. Always. And that's just the grounded representation that we really wanted to show with Ginny & Georgia.
I think that's one of the things we love to do about the show and - talking about the tone - in terms of, yes, murder is terrible. It's illegal. It's bad. People get arrested and go to jail for murder, but there's this gray area that I think that you're referring to, and what we try to do with the tone of the show and balancing the light and the dark, and we really want to highlight and show nuance, that gray area in the flashbacks and seeing her past and what she has done.
We really want to highlight - one of the things we talked about in season one - these systems, these establishments in place that, keep people down, things like that. What Georgia's had to go through and overcome with abuse, sexual abuse, things like that. So there is a gray area for people growing up in certain ways and capacities.
THE CREATIVE PROCESS
I could see there's so many different kinds of diversity on screen. Sometimes you might see a show and you think, Oh gosh, it's ticking off boxes, but it didn't feel like that. It's just behind their eyes. I feel like we're in Ginny’s skin as she's doing self-harm, and we get to understand. And maybe she doesn't understand completely why either. You show what it's like to live in a deaf family and find the humor there and all sorts of nuance.
FISHER
With Ginny, one of the things that we also really wanted to do in terms of her self-help, it was always a hundred percent - we always wanted representation and lived perspectives in front of and behind the camera. That's always been at the forefront and very important for us. So in terms of mental health, we have people that have that lived experience and so we would seek out true mental health professionals. We worked with Mental Health America, and we worked with a psychologist, her name's Dr. Taji Huang, who specialized in self-harm therapy. So, she would read our scripts. We would consult with her about our storylines. She would watch our cuts and have very specific thoughts.
And in season two, we always wanted to bring in Zion as a father because in season one Zion's in three episodes. We hear Ginny talk about him, but we don't get a sense of how close are they? And they're very, very close. And we really wanted to show that father figure helping her get into therapy and that you have a parent like Georgia who doesn't want therapy. And that sort of threatens her and how she grew up, and she doesn't believe in it but goes to therapy with Ginny and learns a lot about herself in that and how she really truly doesn't understand her daughter.
So we really took as much care as we could with people who had lived experiences with professionals just to try to make it as authentic as possible. And I think that's really translating on-screen because people really are identifying with it. Like you say, it's so important to talk about it. It's okay that you're not okay. It's okay to go to therapy. It's okay to talk to your parents about it and your friends. This is all okay. We're all feeling the same way. We all do.
THE CREATIVE PROCESS
Which teachers were important to your development as a writer?
FISHER
And I think in terms of teachers, there were a few teachers that really did influence me in college because I grew up in Maryland. It wasn't until I moved out to L.A., and it took me a little bit of time to find my way to writing. And I'll say I had several really significant showrunners that did some really important things for me. And when I got onto Criminal Minds, Ed Bernero on Criminal Minds. I had a little stint in the world of cop shows, but he really taught us how to produce. I'd only been a writer before that, and he literally threw us into the deep end of the pool and was like, go produce your episode! I was on set. For every single scene, I was in prep with the directors. I really learned from doing, and it truly was from there I earned that writer/producer title.
I also have only worked for two other female showrunners, Maggie Friedman and Erica Shelton Kodish. Working for them changed my life. Those two women, I got to see how women can run shows, how differently that is from a man running a TV show, and I took a lot. When I got to this position, I really had pros and cons lists of things I really wanted to do based on the people that I had worked with. So many of the things, how I run the writer's room, how I am on set, how close I am to the actors and form relationships with them, and making sure everyone feels good and comfortable because we work so long, and we work so hard, and we have to have space for all of that.
THE CREATIVE PROCESS
And you mentioned those female showrunners, which we're so happy to see there's more and more, and so many female creatives on Ginny & Georgia. If you could contrast those different showrunning or writing styles and how a woman holds and maintains power. It seems like there's a great parallel to what you do as a showrunner and Georgia's own life, and Ginny's own life.
FISHER
I like to say that Ginny & Georgia is a show about women by women for everyone. And I will say women in charge, they do things differently. I think that women, we tend to do relationships differently than men do. It's very, very important to me - and I'm not saying that men don't do this - but as a woman, as a female showrunner, it's very important for me to uplift young up-and-coming writers.
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They really do have a love, affection and respect for one another. And I think for me, at the top, I'm a very accessible showrunner to my cast, to my crew, to the writers, to everyone. I'm involved in everything. And I think that way has really done well.
I have to really work strongly to protect my boundaries and to protect my work-life balance. I'm always working on that. I'm not great at that. I need to get better about that, but I think it makes for better TV, a better show, and a better work-life environment for everyone else. I would say that. And just recognizing that when real life comes in, we all have lives outside of work, and we have to recognize that, and if people need time off to grieve or to go do this, we have to respect that and need that.
And at the end of the day, we're here to entertain, and we're here to make beautiful art, but it's always about entertainment. and we're going to be together and because we're together, we're probably with each other more than we are with families and friends who we want to be with. So let's make it the best place, hopefully. Look, it's really hard, and some days people are not happy with each other, but we're going to try to get through it and make the best show possible.
THE CREATIVE PROCESS
It's in the show, and something that we reflect a lot about now is how are social media and the different technologies affecting mental health and the dopamine triggers.
FISHER
I'm so happy that I did not grow up with a phone. I talk about this all the time. I did not have a cellphone growing up. We did not have the internet. I feel for children going through that. I think it's a really challenging time. Technology. I struggle with it now, people having so much access to us. People expecting, because I have a phone right next to me, that I'm going to respond to them.
When you're running a TV show, there's a little bit of an unwritten expectation of your availability during off hours and the weekends, and in a workplace, you really need to have your work-life boundaries. We try to be very cognizant of that within the writer's room and not working too late. We worked like 10-to-5 in season two, like maybe 5:30 with an hour-and-a-half lunch break during the Zoom room and Covid because it's just so important to not be staring at these screens all day. And even with the kids, like if someone needed some time off for a doctor's appointment, we try to really honor that and give that to them.
THE CREATIVE PROCESS
Since you have such a huge role in running the show, is there a particular character that you've particularly connected to and grown fondness for?
FISHER
Showrunning is such a hard job. It's a very unique position. I try to tell people. They're like, what is a showrunner? I mean, it seems obvious, right? Show-runner, but it's not really that obvious. I'm like the CEO of a company. So in addition to the creative, the scripts, the writers' room, what comes out, actors being on set, I also have to have my eye on and am part of building sets, budgets, things like that.
So my brain is split into half-managerial and then half-creative. And then I have, Sarah Lambert, who's the creator, is a huge part as the creator. So if I'm not in the writer's room, she's in the writer's room. And then I can come in and hear what everyone's been doing for the last two hours while I've been helping to hire our department heads and get our new sets built and things like that.
Do I have a favorite character? That is a very hard question because they're all my family. I love all the characters. I think that in some ways -because obviously, I'm not a murderer - I do identify a lot with Georgia in writing scenes with Georgia in them, but then again, also with the kids because I was a teenager once as well. So I love writing the teen scenes as much as I write Georgia, scenes with the guys and Paul and Zion. So much fun. I'm obsessed with Joe. Love writing Joe. So it's hard to say, but I will say probably there are things about Georgia because she's so complicated and so nuanced - and I think we all are in a way - it's so much fun to write her because you're putting on so many different hats and masks when you're writing Georgia.
THE CREATIVE PROCESS
Because of the flashbacks in the show - I don't even like to use the word flashback because tonally it blends, the palette isn’t so completely different, and I like that, too, because it makes us realize how the present is layered over the past. It makes me reflect a lot. I wonder what Ginny will be like as an adult?
FISHER
I think that Ginny is going to be someone who is in the creative world. We've already seen her writing. I think I see her as an artist. I see her being someone who's very vocal, very outspoken in whatever she would attempt to do. I just see her always fighting for people's rights and representation, just who she's becoming as a 16-year-old. I just see her building upon that even more, becoming more comfortable in herself and just being even more outspoken than she is and comfortable with each year. It's interesting to think about her in college. I'm like, Ginny goes to college. Wow, who is she?
THE CREATIVE PROCESS
When I start to get not hopeless that we're not making progress on climate change or politics, I point to film, television, and these collaborative arts that show collaborative dedication. It's like, look at what can be done when there's a collective vision.
FISHER
It is true. You can't make a TV show by yourself. We are here because of the work of 150 to 200 people over the course of four years. And it's so much hard work. It's so much love. The writers, the actors, the directors, the crew - everyone on set helping bring this to life. It takes so many people to make a TV show and to make it good, but you do have to have someone steering the ship and just try to get everyone on that collective vision together.
And so I think we've done a good job. With Sarah being the creator, everyone likes to say she's like the ship. And I'm steering it. We've got a really great balance. And checks and balances, too, because this is designed to have checks and balances, to agree, to disagree, to make the best choice for the show. So we have such a wonderful group and relationship of like Let's look at this. Let's not do it this way. Oh, okay. yeah, you're right. Let's do it this way. Whatever's best for the show. It's always, always, always, best idea wins.
THE CREATIVE PROCESS
What do you think is different about up and coming writers compared to writers who have been experienced in the field? What do you think new writers have to offer in regards to their storytelling and their ideas and their perspectives?
FISHER
What I look for when I'm meeting with new young writers. Look, school, people's routes, they go different ways, right? Sometimes people go to college, and they're writers, or they haven't gone to college. I want people to be writing about things I've never written about. I want them to come in and tell me a story. I'm like, what did you do this summer? And I don't want to hear I sat in my apartment for three months and wrote. I want to hear you got this new hobby, and you were out doing this crazy thing. You were rock climbing and jumping out the planes or whatever it is. Or reading books in the mountains The only way to be a great writer is to live a great life. Live life. You have to get out there. Travel. Do something. Go to movies by yourself. Go to dinner, by yourself. Go sit in a restaurant by yourself. Have you ever done that? I do it all the time. I'm a people watcher. Do things that are going to make you a better writer. I'm really interested in hearing those kinds of stories. Look, I'm deeply impressed by people who've gone to Harvard and Yale and been in plays and actors. I'm deeply impressed by that, but I am really into people with a unique voice. And we all have something. I'm different. I grew up different from you. You grew up different from me. I want to hear about you, Jamie. What do you do? What are your hobbies? What do you do in your spare time? What are your favorite movies of all time?
What cartoons were you watching growing up? Tell me a story. Those are the things that I want to know. So those are the things I hope that are different from people that have been doing it for 20 years, and they think they know this is how we do it, and this is how it's done.
Because I will say the new up-and-coming writers, they're less thinking about keeping it inside the box and how it's always done. It's like, Well, can we try this? And I love, I'm like, Well we have always done it this way, but that's a great idea. Let's ask. Let's see if we can do it this other way because we're not thinking that way.
This interview was conducted by Mia Funk and Jamie Lammers with the participation of collaborating universities and students. Associate Interviews Producer and Digital Media Coordinator on this episode was Jamie Lammers.
Mia Funk is an artist, interviewer and founder of The Creative Process & One Planet Podcast (Conversations about Climate Change & Environmental Solutions).
