Mechtild Rössler is the Director of the UNESCO World Heritage Centre and has worked at the organization for almost 30 years holding different positions, including overseeing the Cultural Heritage Treaty Section, Programme Specialist for Natural Heritage and cultural landscapes, Chief of Europe and North America, and Chief of the Policy and Statutory Meeting Section. She also managed the team of the History, Memory and Dialogue Section (HMD) dealing with the Slave Route, Silk Road Platform and the UNESCO Sharjah Prize for Arab Culture. She has published and co-authored 13 books and more than 100 articles, including, together with Christina Cameron, “Many voices, one vision: the early history of the World Heritage Convention”.

MECHTILD RÖSSLER

The World Heritage Centre was created on the first of May 1992, and it brought together the two parts of the World Heritage Convention and the Secretariat, meaning the natural heritage and the cultural heritage which were previously in two different divisions. It's a very unique instrument. It has now 193 countries, which have ratified it. The idea of this convention is really unique because it is about heritage of outstanding universal value, which is to be preserved not for us, but for the generations to come. And that idea came together in 1972 when we had the first International Conference on the Human Environment. The first UN conference on this. And it was quite interesting. It was a time when you had many NGOs. It was after the publication of a book which was called Silent Spring by Rachel Carson. And it was the idea that there are so many threats to this amazing heritage that the whole of the international community has to do something.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS

What are some achievements or things that you are happy to have been involved with and oversee

RÖSSLER

I am very happy to have been with this convention nearly 30 years. I have seen it from different perspectives and different functions also. And, for me, the most amazing is whenever you go on the ground because the people are so committed. They love their sites. And I also realized how important both the natural and cultural heritage is for the identity of the people. They are really scared about losing their heritage. They see the enormous pressures which are coming through development in all its forms. They look at UNESCO to help this development, which is compatible with World Heritage Site, and which is truly sustainable, meaning that benefits actually go to the communities and to the people living around the sites or in the sites. And they want us to help them to do so.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS

And also, just more broadly, I don't know that everyone knows what UNESCO stands for and its different branches. Tell us a little bit more broadly about UNESCO.

RÖSSLER

UNESCO has a fantastic mandate. UNESCO was created after the Second World War. And if it wouldn't exist, you would have to create it because the idea was that wars start in the minds of men. And you have to look at the minds of men to get peace in their mindsets, so to say. I think the idea of UNESCO is to work on education, science, culture and communication to achieve peace. This is one of the best goals you can have, and it was reinforced through the Sustainable Development Goals. These are the programs we work on in UNESCO with our cultural heritage and the different programs on creativity including creative cities. In the scientific fields, to use science for the creation of peace and to share the knowledge among the peoples of this world.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS

And we have one of our collaborating students is here from China. I wonder if Fanrui had any questions about heritage sites or different programs?

THE CREATIVE PROCESS
Participating Student Fanrui Shao

Yes. I am actually really interested in an article from your website, which is on socioeconomic impacts of World Heritage listings because, from my own experience, many national parks, if they granted the World Heritage listing, they will put it on their tickets and print it on their info desks, on their posters. Do you think it's a positive thing or do you think it's too commercialized?

RÖSSLER

No, I think the idea of World Heritage is that the benefits are also shared among the peoples and the local communities. So it's very important that these communities, which, by the way, they wanted to have the listing, it's not UNESCO saying, "You need to be World Heritage." On the contrary, we are flooded with requests that sites want to become the World Heritage status, but they need to be aware that with the income gain, through tourism, regional development, cultural industries, it's not only tourism. It's all the products which go along with the World Heritage designation that this needs to be shared. So we have a number of tensions, and I am very frank with you especially, I'll give you the example of the Mediterranean. When cruise ships come to sites like Barcelona, Venice, Dubrovnik, the local people don't gain from that. The cruise ships come. Hundreds and hundreds of tourists go into the city. They go back to ship. They stay there. They eat there. So what is the gain for the local community and for the World Heritage Site?

So there is an issue which you, as a site manager, you need to be aware before the listing. We actually help the sites to define management plans, to define visitor use plans, but I have seen over the last 10 years such an increase of tourism in some of the sites—not all of the sites but in a few of the sites—that it's no longer a benefit for the local people and they turn against the tourists. So in Venice, we have seen that some of the local people went on boats and threw paint against the cruise ships. They say, "We want to have our sites back for us." So there is a tension and this tension needs to be dealt with by the site management and by the national authorities. If it means reducing visitors, we have to do that. We have even sites you cannot visit because the damage would be so big. If you look at Lascaux or the Grotte Chauvet, we cannot let any single visitor into the site. So what did they do? They made programs like in the Grotte Chauvet, they created Grotte Chauvet 2. So you can go there. It's a total reconstruction of the original, but you can see it. You can experience it. It's paint, which looks like the original. But they have also now made virtual experiences, which is also interesting. I actually went to the museum alone the other day and and experienced it myself. So you have the virtual thing to look at. And I went virtually into the grotte and there was a bear coming along. So it was quite an experience. And I think this is also the future, speaking about technology and make best use to better understand the sites and to put yourself into the feeling of a person who lived there thousands of years ago.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS

Following on from that, the effects of pollution and thinking about climate change, what is your personal position on some difficult decisions we must make in terms of travel or reducing our consumption and sustainability?

RÖSSLER

This is certainly a big debate. On the one hand, you want to experience the world and the sites also want to share with the whole world and the nations want to share with the whole world their unique heritage. So it's a difficult situation because you want to have tourists on the one hand, but also you need to take into account what tourism means in terms of using the resources and in terms of pollution and air travel and using various scarce water resources, for example. There may be places where we don't have enough water in the future, and it's starting to be problematic in some areas of Spain, for example, in the Mediterranean in general.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS

Now, you know, ending on a question as you think about the future, education, cultural and natural heritage and the kind of world we're leaving our children, what do you feel are some ways we might improve our current systems?

RÖSSLER

Oh, this is a very big question. I really think that we cannot leave for future generations a world which is destroyed. So what I can do in my power, in the little field I'm working in globally, I try to preserve the World Heritage Sites so that we can leave them in good shape for future generations. But it is not an easy thing, especially with the rate at which we face climate change. I think this was long underestimated. Scientific advice was not followed and even questioned. And I think this is something we really need to deal with–both for natural and for cultural heritage—to have an environment in which the basis for our survival is given. But at the moment, I see major challenges there. There is some hope because there is a rising awareness among young people. They are getting more engaged than the generation before them, and they question what's happening by the government. So I think that this is a positive sign. For us at UNESCO, education is at the heart. Speaking different languages, trying to understand the other, and learning about your own culture and your own identity is always a strength wherever you go.

This interview was conducted by Mia Funk with the participation of collaborating universities and students. Associate Interviews Producer on this podcast was Fanrui Shao. Digital Media Coordinator is Yu Young Lee. “Winter Time” was composed by Nikolas Anadolis and performed by the Athenian Trio.