Will human efficiency destroy the planet and us? - DR. LUDOVIC SLIMAK - Author of The Naked Neanderthal

Interviewed by Mia Funk & Sebastian Classen

Who were the Neanderthals? And what can our discoveries about them teach us about intelligence, our extractivist relationship to the planet, and what it means to be human?

Ludovic Slimak is a paleoanthropologist at the University of Toulouse in France and Director of the Grotte Mandrin research project. His work focuses on the last Neanderthal societies, and he is the author of several hundred scientific studies on these populations. His research has been featured in Nature, Science, the New York Times, and other publications. He is the author of The Naked Neanderthal: A New Understanding of the Human Creature.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS · ONE PLANET PODCAST

We are currently facing the possibility of a sixth extinction. We need to adapt to a two-degree world and people say our only hope for finding a way out of this is through our creativity. However, you've suggested that Neanderthals were actually more creative than Homo sapiens, only Homo sapiens learned how to extract as much value as possible from their environment without considering the impact on the ecology of the planet, and now this is coming back to haunt us. I am wondering what we can learn from this other Neanderthal way of relating to the natural world?

LUDOVIC SLIMAK

This book is not just about Neanderthals. It's a book about us. I wanted to warn humans, to say there is something in us that is so efficient and dangerous. We've effectively collapsed many things and are now inducing the collapse of natural environments on the planet. And after that, we might even cause the collapse of ourselves as Homo sapiens.

Neanderthal Creativity and Adaptability: A New Perspective

After working 30 years excavating in caves, in rock shelters, and really in tracking what I call the creator, my feeling was after many years, I didn't really know what to think about Neanderthals, but at a certain moment, after seeing millions of these tools – they make very nice tools – and I began to realize something very interesting. These two populations have the same technologies, they could produce the same categories of tools and weapons, but when you are dealing with early Homo sapiens, I realized that all these tools were really standardized.

That means that they were very nice, but after you saw a hundred of these tools for Sapiens, the 10,000 after that will be precisely the same. So, there are processes of standardization that are precisely our own way of making crafts, industries, or technologies. We have a project, and then we reproduce this project until we have as many numbers as we need. But for Neanderthal tools, I realized that, okay, the tools are also very nice, sometimes impressive in terms of techniques. But I realized that each of these tools were unique. Absolutely unique. That means that when you find a Neanderthal tool or a weapon, you have to look at it very carefully because a million tools after that will be completely different from that one. And that was not a question of tools or flint or craft. That was the visible part of an iceberg.

The iceberg is how these populations, that means both Neanderthal and Sapiens, understand the world and how they behave in the world. We are not talking about flint and about scrappers of points. It's not that at all. The question is, we have two categories of humans, which are deeply divergent. One is hyper-standardized, and the other is much more creative. It was clear to me that this creativity was related to the raw material that this population used. For example, if he was taking a pebble of flint, and he'd say, “Okay, now I'm going to make my point in that flint.” Neanderthal will adapt his project to the function of the color, texture, and natural morphologies of the block. So you have a kind of dialectic, a kind of discussion between the craftsman and the natural environment. When you are dealing with Homo sapien technology, they have the same categories of technologies, but it's very clear that even very early Sapiens, when they have a project, they will constrain the natural world to their project.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS · ONE PLANET PODCAST

We are discussing the ecological crisis and the need to restore the balance on our planet. Additionally, we are experiencing the emergence of a new consciousness with the advent of AI. I am curious to know your thoughts on the challenges and opportunities this presents and how we can navigate a path towards the future.

SLIMAK

AI is a fascinating question. You know children are sponges. They look and say this is something different. So your values are no longer good enough for the future. And this is what we are confronted with with AI. And that's a fantastic tool, but at a certain moment, this technology will evolve and become super efficient and smarter than we are. And at this moment, our children could simply reject everything that makes us human. And our society at this moment, and maybe that of our humanity, could collapse on itself.

I begin the book with a question of intelligence outside of Earth. That could be AI, that could be extraterrestrials. This is fascinating for us because this is another intelligence. Now, we have created AI, and we are fascinated by what we see because we can discuss with an AI and it's very clear that the AI understands our concepts and responds with our own concepts.

As long as your children believe your traditions are a good way to be human on Earth, they will continue to be like you. And your society and your civilization will continue. But the moment they see a better and more efficient way to do things, they will no longer believe in your ways, and your traditions will collapse in a whisper.

THE CREATIVE PROCESS · ONE PLANET PODCAST

As you reflect on the future, what would you like young people to know, preserve, and remember?

SLIMAK

I think what is very, very important for the young generations - because they hear every day and everywhere that this is the end of our world because of many things, particularly about the question of climate change - and we must tell young generations, first of all, we don't know anything about the future. Maybe the future is incredibly nice. Incredibly nice, because we are going to have at a certain moment absolute energy, the ability to travel anywhere in space, the ability to colonize any satellite in our solar system, and maybe with no more any kind of fitness, no more cancer, nothing else. So the future can be bright and incredible. And the young generations should keep in mind that they are on a magical planet which is full of beauty and they must love it and preserve it as best as they can with hope.

Photo credit: Laure Metz

This interview was conducted by Mia Funk and Sebastian Classen with the participation of collaborating universities and students. Associate Interviews Producers on this episode were Sophie Garnier and Sebastian Classen. One Planet Podcast & The Creative Process is produced by Mia Funk. Additional production support by Katie Foster.

Mia Funk is an artist, interviewer and founder of The Creative Process & One Planet Podcast (Conversations about Climate Change & Environmental Solutions).
Listen on Spotify Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Professor of Physics, Ice, Climate & Earth at the Niels Bohr Institute

What happens if we lose the Greenland ice sheet and pass the tipping points and Earth systems shut down?

If that shuts down, roughly speaking, the climate of Northern Europe would be like the climate of Alaska. So, climate models that actually simulate what happens when it's shut down, would say that England becomes like Northern Norway, which means that food security and things like that will be threatened because you cannot grow many crops in Northern Norway. And other models say precipitation changes, so places that are wet might become dry, and so on. So, these are of course severe consequences for Europe, but in some sense, this is going in the opposite direction of global warming. We're all talking about we're getting into a warmer world, but I'm talking about a cooling here. But the warm water that does not then flow from the tropics into the North Atlantic will stay in the tropics. And there, you're not contra-balancing global warming. There you will have the heating on top of the global warming. And that I see as maybe the largest problem we have is that the tropics become even warmer. And we have to realize if you live in a place where mean temperatures are maybe late thirties Celsius and or rise to the forties livelihood becomes very difficult.

DR. BARRY SCHWARTZ

DR. BARRY SCHWARTZ

Psychologist · Author of Why We Work
The Paradox of Choice: Why More Is Less

In 2004, the internet was just getting started in a major league way, and already the choice overload was a problem. I would say that from the modern perspective, 2004 seems like the 18th century, and as near as I can tell, all of these changes, every single one of them has made the problem substantially worse. The idea that you can get information to help guide you through - well, yeah, but what information do you believe? What's trustworthy? What's being motivated by an opportunity to sell you something? So there is a haze, there is this fog that we're operating in. And I think we just sort of give up in resignation and look at recommendations and hope that they're legitimate because how else do you get through the day?

KOHEI SAITO

Author of Slow Down! How Degrowth Communism Can Save the World
Marx in the Anthropocene: Towards the Idea of Degrowth Communism

The Green New Deal presents itself as a kind of radical policy. If you look at the content, it's just simply the continuation of what capitalism wants to do. It's a massive investment in new, allegedly green industries, with the creation of more jobs with higher wages, but these are not the things that socialists or any environmentalists should be actually seeking because we recognize that capitalism is basically the root cause of the climate crisis and the misery of the workers. If so, I think it is high time to imagine something radically very different from business-as-usual capitalism.

The Long Tradition of American Jewish Critiques of Israel & Their Suppression

The Long Tradition of American Jewish Critiques of Israel & Their Suppression

American Jews were interested and involved in Palestinian rights all the way back to 1948. There's this idea that it came about just now or in the 1970s, but actually as long as there's been a Nakba. As long as there's been Palestinian refugees, there’s been American Jews concerned with that, too. I would say that a lot of times these American Jews were very well informed and spent time in the region, and they came to these conclusions often not in the United States, but over there where they were talking to the Israeli left and meeting Palestinians and seeing a situation that they don't feel is ethical or sustainable.

BEN FRANTA

Founding Head of the Climate Litigation Lab
Senior Research Fellow at University of Oxford’s Sustainable Law Programme

For 40 years, the American Petroleum Institute has hired economists to argue it would be too expensive to try and control fossil fuels and that climate change wasn't that bad. The same go-to consultancy firm has been involved in every major climate policy fight from the very beginning and hired by the fossil fuel industry, but what are the courts going to do? It's not just the historical deception. It's an ongoing deception.

MICHAEL STICKA

President/CEO of the GRAMMY Museum

It's actually right in our mission statement that “we celebrate the music of yesterday and today to inspire the music of tomorrow.” And we do it through our exhibits. We have 35,000 square feet of galleries. We travel exhibits, really, all over the world over the world for the past 15 years. And through our education programs, we really focus on the next generation of music's creators and leaders. We do that through really specific curricula that is designed to educate particularly young people, K-12, about the business of music, especially for those who want to go into the industry.

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